Ep 190: Terry Allen ~ Discipleship, Faith & Mentoring

Unlock the true essence of Christian discipleship with Terry Allen, the visionary behind AMentor4Me.com. Our conversation unravels how discipleship requires more than just belief—it demands a lifelong commitment to learning and aligning with divine purpose. We confront the trend of modern churches reducing the gospel to marketing strategies and explore the profound transformation that genuine discipleship can bring to one's life.

The episode sheds light on the crisis of discipleship within Western Christianity. As we navigate the tension between church metrics and authentic spiritual growth, we question whether attendance and budgets should overshadow the mission Jesus emphasised. Listeners are encouraged to adopt an authentic approach to faith, understanding that the pursuit of truth is essential, even if it leads to division.

Mentorship emerges as a crucial theme, especially in addressing the isolation of men of all ages. Terry shares insightful stories of intergenerational mentorship, revealing how these interactions foster spiritual growth and community. We reflect on the value of spiritual transformation and the unique support many men find within a Christian context, emphasising leadership, humility, and the pursuit of truth as we contemplate purpose and legacy.

Find Terry here:
www.AMentor4Me.com

Chapters

• 0:02 Discipleship and Life Transformation
• 7:55 The Crisis of Discipleship
• 17:34 The Challenge of Discipleship and Isolation
• 31:49 Connecting Men Through Mentorship
• 35:27 The Value of Spiritual Transformation
• 43:31 Leadership, Discipleship, and Spiritual Reflection

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Truth and Transcendence, brought to you by being Space with Katherine Llewellyn. Truth and Transcendence, episode 190, with special guest Terry Allen. Now Terry's come on here today to talk about discipleship. Terry's the founder of Mentor4Me, connecting younger men with older mentors, and you can find out all about that at A-Mentor4Me. And the four is the digit four, so it's a mentor digit for mecom. And Terry's background is in public policy as congressional staffer, think tank president and political campaign advisor. So this is a very interesting combination of interests that Terry has. Terry, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Speaker 2: 1:04

Thank you, good to be with you.

Speaker 1: 1:06

Excellent. So, Terry, let's kick off from the beginning. Would you share with us your earliest memory of being interested in and engaging with this notion of discipleship?

Speaker 2: 1:22

That's a great question.

Speaker 2: 1:23

I don't think I've ever been asked that about specifically discipleship, because discipleship is a part of the Christian faith, it is a part of the life of a believer and so I think it was sometime in, probably in grade school, when I was oh, probably, I don't know 10, 11, 12, that I realized and heard and was taught that and began to read in the Bible that there's more than just believing, giving mental assent, putting your trust and faith in, initially in Christ and in his finished work for my and in his finished work for my restoration into my relationship with God, that there was actually an ongoing effort that is required to cooperate with what God is doing in my life.

Speaker 2: 2:15

It wasn't explained exactly in that way. I wish it had been because I think that's a lot more accurate. But the theme of discipleship. Jesus said whoever wants to follow me must be my disciple, which means a learner. That was pretty early on in my faith. I became a Christian when I was seven. I was young, so it was probably three, four, five years in that I started understanding that.

Speaker 1: 2:38

Wow, that's extraordinary. The reason I say that's extraordinary is because a lot of people who even people who identify as Christians don't seem to have got hold of this notion of discipleship in the way that you describe it. A lot of people talk more as if God is the authority and you do what you're told and then you're a good person. You know nothing about being responsible for learning and work. You know.

Speaker 2: 3:14

Yeah, I think we get a lot of that in the evangelical church. I think among Reformed and evangelical churches there's a lot of emphasis on discipleship but, yeah, not a lot. Particularly in the Roman church and in some of the mainline denominations there's not a lot of emphasis on that, unfortunately, sadly. Now that's a generalization, but yeah, that's something that is left out of the modern message of the church. One of the things that really bothers me is that I think the church in the West has adopted a very secular form of marketing strategy to the gospel, to the good news of the gospel of Jesus, and too many leaders have boiled the gospel down into what is essentially like a cheap infomercial for fire insurance and they've said if you'll just believe and say these seven words and raise your hand and acknowledge that you're praying with me now, you can go to heaven when you die. Well, there's an element of truth in that to a degree, but that is not the gospel. That's a kind of a bastardization of the gospel and that is not what Jesus taught.

Speaker 2: 4:31

There was a young man, who's referred to as the rich young ruler, who was a very wealthy young man and came to Jesus and said what must I do to inherit eternal life. And Jesus told him. He said go and sell everything you have and follow me. And the Bible says he went away, sad because he had many possessions, and Jesus didn't try to chase after him, he didn't try to cut him a deal and say well, I'll tell you what. We'll make a deal. He just let him go because he knew his heart wasn't ready. And so the point is that Jesus is not desperate. Jesus loves us and he came and sacrificed and died to rescue us. But that doesn't mean he's going to bend the rules to allow us to be our own boss and do our own thing and save us anyway. It's an all or nothing proposition. It's all in, and so many churches have made the decision to follow Christ the most important thing.

Speaker 2: 5:26

And that's not what Jesus taught. Jesus said if you want to follow me, it is a very difficult thing to do because you're giving me your life, you're writing me a blank check. Jesus says I'm the boss and I'm the controller of your future. I'm the determiner of your future and if you're going to follow me, you're going to have to get with my program and learn to live life the way that it really is, which is how I created it, and cooperate with me and what I want to do in your life.

Speaker 2: 6:00

And that message is not an easy sell, and so the church doesn't emphasize that. And so you have a whole generation of people who've come to faith in Christ who are not told that the expectation is that, okay, your life is not your own anymore. You have to relearn how to think, you have to relearn how to behave. You have to relearn from the ground up. God's priority in our life, god's priority in our life is he doesn't save us in order to leave us the way that we are. He saves us in order to change us. He changes us into his image. So that's a very powerful idea. People really understand that.

Speaker 1: 6:41

It changes everything.

Speaker 2: 6:42

You're not on the throne anymore, you're not in control. You write him a blank check and say, okay, here it is, here's my life, take it, make it what you will. That's discipleship yeah, great.

Speaker 1: 6:52

Well, to me that is, um, that sort of parallels, um, when people talk about being on the path in relationship to quite a few different philosophies and spiritual ways of looking at things, that idea of being in service to the highest principles or whatever it is that you're following, and that's a lifelong journey rather than just a. I've memorized this now and I'm done. I've memorized this now and I'm done, and that can be a daunting idea. I think you're absolutely right.

Speaker 1: 7:32

That can be a daunting idea, but to me it's more interesting. I think the way you describe it is more interesting to me than the way it was presented to me when I was at school. Let's say I was at school. Let's say when I was at school it was presented as and this was Church of England. I suppose it must have been that we were being taught at school it was. You have to show up to the classes, you have to go to church, you have to say the words and you have to say that you believe in God, and then you'll be fine. Oh really, words, and you have to say that you believe in god, and then you'll be fine. And oh really. And I thought that sounds like nonsense to me. I mean, that just sounds like, um, a lazy, a lazy way of virtue signaling.

Speaker 2: 8:18

That's what it sounds right, that's exactly what it sounds like.

Speaker 1: 8:21

Doesn't sound very authentic no, it wasn't, it wasn't. I found it very, very unappealing and it put me off organized religion very strongly I can understand why.

Speaker 2: 8:31

I can see why but you're.

Speaker 1: 8:32

But what you're also saying now is that the modern, a lot of the modern ways that christianity is kind of marketed, is done in a way where it doesn't emphasize this discipleship, because they think that would be more popular to do it. That way.

Speaker 2: 8:47

Well, because it's not as easy to score points, it's not easy to gain adherence. See the way that the Western church is structured. Every Western church has a budget. You have the pastor. You have to support a full-time staff. You have property and overhead. You have all this overhead and you got to make your bills. You got to pay your bills and so it's all about attendance. It's about budgets, it's about money. It's a business.

Speaker 2: 9:16

That is not what the Lord came and lived and died to create a business. There is a real kingdom of his authority that exists, that is going to ultimately rule eventually, and it has started. It is both now and not yet. Jesus referred to it as the kingdom of God. It is both now and not yet, and it is a set of principles that rule the created order in the universe. And Jesus says I have restored you, I have given you the opportunity the Bible says as many as received him to them gave he the power and right to become the children of God. And I ransomed you and I bought you back from the domain of darkness to become who you were created to be, which was children in right standing with me and if you will accept my forgiveness and my sacrifice and, in exchange, give me your life and live for me and devote yourself to me, then you are now my adopted child and you can live in the realm of the kingdom of God rather than in the realm of the kingdom of darkness. You've been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light and you now live according to a set of principles, and that those principles may or may not have anything to do with your catechism or your church membership or your church participation. If your church is structured correctly and governed correctly, it will be consistent with his kingdom and it will point you in the right direction and help you become transformed into the image of Christ. But if your church is structured wrong, it may not look anything like that. It may not look anything like the image of Christ, but if your church is structured wrong, it may not look anything like that. It may not look anything like the kingdom of God.

Speaker 2: 11:09

So, yeah, so if you're pastoring a modern day church, your temptation is to adopt your message to fit your needs of the immediate needs of the hour, which is what's our attendance running? What's our budget? Are we meeting our bills? Are we paying our bills? Are we getting everything done we need to do, because we're building a program here, and that's really not healthy. That is not healthy. Are there churches that are healthy, that have all that? Yes, there are. But my point is that the inherent structure of the way the church is designed and functioning and built today, especially in the West, is really problematic and we're seeing some major problems because of it.

Speaker 2: 11:50

And so what happens is the message of discipleship gets lost. So the pastor's number one priority is to make disciples. That's what Jesus told him to do and that's what the pastor will have to give an account to God for. Did you make disciples? Did you do what I told you to do in the Great Commission? He's not going to say did you make your budget, did you pay your bills, did you get all your programs successful? Did you get your Christmas pageant done and did you get all these other things? He's going to say did you make disciples? So there's a gap, unfortunately, and that's a major crisis. We call it the crisis of discipleship in the church.

Speaker 1: 12:30

Wow, well, fascinating hearing. I mean, this is not a world that I kind of normally swim in, so it's fascinating hearing you talking about it. And I also love the way when you talk about it, that you do it in a way that is non-divisive. You know, it's like you're inviting me into something that you understand very well. And I also notice quite often, when people are very strongly connected in with a modality or religion or spiritual way of being, spiritual way of being, that they don't always communicate about it in such an inclusive way or kind of welcoming way as you're doing.

Speaker 2: 13:15

Well, if we spoke long enough, we probably would find areas where we have major, major disagreements, because, you know, unfortunately I mean unfortunately, but the reality is there is truth, we believe there is truth, christians believe there is ultimate, absolute truth, and the truth divides, you know, the truth does. It's just the nature of truth divides, and so there are. If you hang out here long enough, you will come across issues that are extremely divisive, and so does that mean that and according to Orthodox Christian doctrine, we're not Christians, are not given the option of choosing to cherry pick which doctrines we will follow or which truths of Scripture we will adhere to and which we will forsake. It's an all-inclusive take it or leave it all-in worldview, and so are there divisive issues. Yes, does the truth divide? Yes, but the most important thing to understand and remember, I believe, is that everything that we're in the search for truth from the Judeo-Christian perspective is centered around God's love for people, and the reason that God deems something either harmful or off-limits is because it hurts people, or off-limits is because it hurts people. And so if you keep the focus on what God focuses on, which is His incredible love for people, his incredible passion for people, it helps to keep it all in perspective, because people can disagree about social issues and cultural issues and political issues, but if someone is operating out of anger and not love, that can become evident and that I'm not responsible for someone who disagrees with me on an issue. But I'm responsible for me and we are responsible for ourselves as believers in jesus. And um jesus, everything underlying every issue, every action is his love and compassion for people. So as long as we keep that in perspective, um, it helps, because jesus loves us. He created us in his image.

Speaker 2: 15:40

The bible teaches that he created us. He's the agent of creation. According to colossians, he, he is the, actually the agent of creation. He did it, um, and uh, he created us. Uh, in his image. He created us amazing, amazingly complicated and complex and in design. And uh, he loves us and he loves people, he loves everyone and so, and so he despises those things which hurt us. And so you say God hates something. Well, the actual rendering in the original language is that God hates those things that hurt the things that he loves. He's against those things that hurt his beloved. So got to keep the main thing. The main thing right Is that there's a time to draw the line and to take a stand on something, but understanding motivation is that as God's compassion and his love for others.

Speaker 1: 16:38

Yeah, lovely, lovely. Thank you, Really great. So would you like to share with us a bit about what it's been like for you? Because I know we're talking about discipleship and you reminded us that is only a part of the faith and also we just have this one piece of time to talk, so we're not going to talk about everything about you and everything about your faith. So what was it like for you being 10, 12 years old, getting hold of this idea of discipleship and then traveling through life from that point with your awareness of that and your kind of growing understanding and experience in relationship to that? What was that like for you? How did it affect your relationships? How did it affect the way you traveled through your life?

Speaker 2: 17:34

Well, I grew up in, I think, a very positive environment. I had a very good childhood, had a very secure home, had great parents loved me, and so I didn't really have a lot of trauma. I didn't have to deal with some of the trauma that's so prevalent in our society, which I'm very fortunate. So the notion of discipleship was very prevalent and very front of mind as I was a teenager, into my teenage years, when I got to be about 17 and I got opportunities to start driving and I got opportunities to kind of make my own way in the world and make my own decisions about what kind of life I wanted to live. It became really top of mind, front of mind, and I decided, I made a conscious decision that I was going to. It was interesting, catherine, I would read about these characters in scripture King David of ancient Israel or Joseph, the patriarch Joseph, or even Moses or others and I had just a very inherent sense that I was going to have one life and I got one opportunity to make it count and I wanted.

Speaker 2: 18:46

I think the core motivation for me was I knew I had an old, beat up car and we worked on that car every weekend. My first car. I bought it with cash, my own money. I had to work for it when I was growing up, and that we bought it and we spent every weekend working on it. And I remember thinking one time that if I could just get the guy who designed this car and this engine and this carburetor, he could show us why this carburetor keeps messing up. But I thought that's it. If the one who made me, if I could tap into him, he will show me the way forward.

Speaker 2: 19:18

And so what that meant was is I really applied the idea that if I can tap into the one who created my desires, who knows what I need and want before even I do, why wouldn't I do that? That makes ultimate sense. That is, I've got one life to live. I want to make it count. I want to go for the brass ring in a sense, but not just from a financial or goal standpoint. I want to make my life count.

Speaker 2: 19:47

I want to be like those men that I read about in the Bible, especially King David, when God calls him a man after his own heart. I thought I want to be your man, god. I want to be your man. I want to be somebody that you are proud of and that you love and that you're pleased with and that will cooperate with you to mold my life what you want it to be. So from an early, really early on, from when I started driving and started dating girls and choosing where I wanted to go to college and what I wanted to major in and what I wanted to study in my career, who I wanted to marry, I really made those decisions in prayer, with starting out with prayers. That is the key center of that and I've done that really through my life and that's been the guiding principle in my life. It really has ever since I was young wow so it's a major factor fantastic.

Speaker 1: 20:39

So is it fair to say that you have been within yourself, practicing discipleship, practicing being a disciple yes, for right at about 50 years now.

Speaker 2: 20:51

Because I was, I was saved, I was became a christian 53 years ago and there, from about three or four years in, yeah, I've been really focused on doing that and memorizing Scripture and what's referred to in Scripture as dying to yourself daily and surrendering your will to God's will. So yeah, about 50 years been a practicing believer and a disciple of Jesus, Wow.

Speaker 1: 21:16

Well, no wonder it's, no wonder it comes across so grounded in you when you talk about it. And I just want to say I really admire that, that uh dedication and that practice you know, because I know I, I practice certain things and being consistent in the practice of something really is a big deal and there's so many opportunities to get distracted from it or for the ego to come in and say are you sure this is a good idea?

Speaker 2: 21:43

and all of that and not just distractions but but difficulties. I mean, life is hard. Life is so stressful, it is so hard to to make it today to be a parent, you know, parent, to make ends meet and do all the responsibilities. I don't know how people who are not grounded in something do it, because the fears and the uncertainty of life are just. They can be paralyzing. I mean, it's no wonder to me that there's such dysfunction in families and in people's lives and that people make such bad decisions, because it gets cloudy In our faith.

Speaker 2: 22:32

It teaches that we have an adversary who hates us, who is trying to thwart the will of God in every instance, in every moment, and that hates us dearly and would love nothing better than to derail God's plans for our lives. So we have to fight that as well, not just the uncertainty and the questions, but what we would refer to as spiritual warfare, spiritual attacks. And so I feel it, I see it, I've experienced it and I don't know how people do it. Because life is hard. It is tough If you're not grounded in something that you're holding onto. It's essential. I have a friend who used to say you'll hit the hard wall of life eventually. Life's just that hard. If you're trusting in something that doesn't work, life will prove it either true or false, because you'll hit that wall and what you're depending upon will be tested and it will either prove true or it will prove not true. I believe that because life is hard.

Speaker 1: 23:38

Yeah, absolutely, and I do, yeah, I certainly recognize that that life actually responds with the feedback. You get the feedback, don't you? You know, am I on the path? Am I on my right path? And am I really following it? So you are now putting this discipleship into practice with a mentor for me. I'd love if you would share about that with the listeners.

Speaker 2: 24:05

You bet, you bet. I was sitting in church one day and I looked to my right and our church kind of skews, older and affluent, and I realized there were probably we probably run you know 800 people on a Sunday morning and I saw probably 60 or 70 men to my right who were sitting with their wives. They were well-groomed, they were gray-haired and they were successful and just I could tell you know they'd served faithfully in their job and in their family and I just I thought, thought we have a lot of spiritual equity in this church. This is just amazing, Um the uh, the people that attend here. So much to offer.

Speaker 2: 24:45

And then I thought about immediately, the, the numbers of men who've grown up without fathers and with absent fathers or or distant fathers, and I thought there's gotta be a way to connect the two together. And so I got this idea and this was this was 13, 14 years ago and for about 12 years, this, just this, this idea just kind of germinated and I thought surely somebody will figure this out and put together some kind of online platform. Nothing ever happened. And so I was having dinner with a friend about two years ago, told him about this idea and he said if you'll build that website, I'll help you. So he committed to me to help him and I said let me write you a memo and what it will take. And as I wrote the memo, I realized this is very doable. We got to do this. This is a problem that can be fixed and so launched the site about two years ago, about a year and a half ago, about a year and a half ago, About a year and a half ago, and I've learned a lot. And something I've learned is that I thought that the reason that the discipleship crisis exists in America is because of a lack of attention and effort that most pastors are just not attempting to address, that they're doing other things. They're focusing on attendance and budgets and fundraising and other activities, and part of that's true, but there is a lot of attention and effort going into discipleship in the West, particularly in America.

Speaker 2: 26:13

But I found something else out that there's even greater problem that prevents discipleship in America, in the church, and it's a problem that is prevalent and most pastors are not aware of it. And that problem is a problem of isolation. It is a prevalent problem that's pervasive, it's everywhere and, again, most pastors aren't aware that it's there, but it is. Think about it. You can get today your meal ready to eat or your groceries either one or both, you can deliver to your front door without ever talking to a human being. You get your news, you get your entertainment. If you're a Christian, you get your worship, you can get your sermons Everything you want you can get without talking to another human being.

Speaker 2: 27:03

So the culture just pushes us toward isolation, right? So if you just lift your feet from where you stand and you're in a river, the current of that river will just push you toward isolation. It's just drifting. It never ends, right? That's the drift of the culture. And then you throw on top of that that most men in the church who are intentional about their life and are trying to do things according to their convictions and consistently within their convictions, most men have one thing in common what is it? They're busy. So you lay on top of that the busyness on top of the drift of the culture, and what happens is very well-intentioned men who want to follow Jesus and who want to be what God wants them to be and who God wants them to be, find themselves alone in their thoughts, in their actions, and they realize I don't have many friends, I can't confide in a lot of people and men generally don't like to confide a lot anyway, and so this culture of isolation is just festering and it's terrible and it's really bad and it's prevalent, it's everywhere and it's even in the church, and it's especially in the church because pastors are the worst.

Speaker 2: 28:16

Pastors are isolated. They don't have anybody in their church they can confide in, because if they can confide in somebody in their church, it's a risk for them, because you can't confide someone in what you're struggling with. That's a recipe for losing your job, right? So it's a crisis. It's a crisis of isolation. It's called. A friend of mine has termed this relational poverty, that we are living in relational poverty. And now why does that matter? Well, because if you look at the Gospels and what Jesus taught right before Jesus was going to be arrested, to be tried, you know what he prayed for. He prayed for one thing he prayed that his disciples would be unified, that they would all be unified. Why did he pray that? Because there is power in unity and the church needs to be unified. So Jesus wants unity, which is within community. So isolation is over here. Unity and community are over here. It's diametrically opposed to what Jesus wants.

Speaker 2: 29:19

So if I'm a pastor and I'm expecting my guys to get discipled, the first thing I have to do is understand that they're isolated. They don't have the opportunity to get discipled. You got to get them together. You got to address the core issues that they're dealing with in a forum that men can function in. And so what we do is, as we train mentors, we get them into small groups of six to eight men and we take them through a curriculum called Fast Forward, and what Fast Forward refers to is basically being able to develop close relationships with other guys quickly and get to know each other and deal with the core issues that all men face, and in the process of doing that, it pulls them out of their isolation, helps them get to know other men, it helps them to know others and to be known, to become known, because deep down, we all have a need to be known.

Speaker 2: 30:17

And so you develop that safe atmosphere for guys and they just come alive. They just start revealing things about themselves. Hey, I'm struggling with this, I'm concerned about that, I'm afraid about that. I'm victorious here, I'm having a great experience here, but I'm really struggling here. And they get bonded and they realize, wow, this is some of the most powerful things I've ever experienced. And we show them. We don't just give them a tip sheet and say here's the five things that mentors need to do. We walk with them through that experience so that by the end of our 15-week Zoom sessions, they have seen a real-life model of how to mentor other guys in a peer mentoring situation and say okay, now you want to lead one of these groups, you can, or, if you be available to meet younger guys who want to reach out to you. So that's our mentor training. So we've learned that there's a. To answer your question, Catherine, there's basically a deeper problem in the church that is causing part of the crisis of discipleship, and that is isolation, and we have to address it.

Speaker 1: 31:13

Well, I must say that that issue of isolation is relevant in many, many, many areas. We have it over here in the UK as well, where people are spending too much time on their own, basically, and the people who suffer yeah, people are right, it's a way of life.

Speaker 2: 31:33

It's a way of life.

Speaker 1: 31:34

And men suffer from it particularly, I think, because I think in general you know we've generalized, but in general I think women are better at, you know, finding a gang of people to talk to without too much difficulty. But funnily enough, I was talking to my cousin, who's a man. He's in his early 70s and he's now got this mission going on whereby he finds elderly men who are just sitting at home the whole time watching TV because their wife has died or they retired or whatever. He just goes around and sees them and drags them out of the house. He says you got to get them out, that's his whole motto what he's doing, and it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1: 32:19

He says I might take them into my garage and get them to do some woodwork with me. I might get them to go for a walk down the river. I might take them to the pub. His whole thing is walk into someone's house, grab them and drag them out of the house.

Speaker 2: 32:36

Well, the truth there is that there is. There's equity in retired men. You know, they've got experience in their careers, they've got life experience as husbands and fathers and, in the case of Christian men, they've got life experience with the Lord. That's invaluable. And what we find in our mentor training is that men will open up if given the opportunity, and they have just as great of a need to be known and be appreciated as women do. They're just not given the opportunity most of the time, so when they are, they will do that.

Speaker 2: 33:08

You know, one of the dynamics that we run into right now is we. It is a challenge, you know. You ask how it's going. The one thing we've, the big thing we've learned, is that the isolation is real and it needs to be addressed. One of the other things we've learned is that it's it's a challenge for for younger guys to understand that they they really do need mentors. It you know.

Speaker 2: 33:31

You look at anybody who's ever done anything, who's ever been successful in any endeavor, in any field in sports, medicine, entertainment, politics, business. They all had someone who showed them how to do it. No one figured it out on their own. They all had mentors. And we can go through and I've documented dozens and dozens of people who've been some of the most famous and successful people, who all had mentors, and you can trace them. And that's one of our pitches to younger guys is guys, why do you have to experience the potholes? There's no reason you have to experience the difficulties. You can learn and glean invaluable experience. I had one guy told us. He said I could have saved 10 years on my career if I would have just listened to older guys and learned and understood that they really did want to give back into me. But I didn't think they wanted to. I didn't think they cared.

Speaker 2: 34:27

So what we want to do is we're providing a forum for younger guys can go and they can hit the website and they can see a list of mentors and they can read their bios and they can see their pictures and they can say, oh, here's a guy who has a career interest like mine, or here's a guy who has been through an experience like me, or he was raised like I was and maybe I want to reach out and have a cup of coffee or have a zoom call and just hear him and get to know him and maybe there's something there I can glean from him.

Speaker 2: 34:59

That's what we've set up and it's completely free, it's completely open, there's no charge, there's no condition, and it's available for everyone. So that's what we've tried to put together and give an opportunity for people to become discipled, for people who want to be discipled in the Lord. So if you're not a born-again Christian, if that's not you and that's not your cup of tea, then you may not be interested. But if that is you and that's where you're headed and that's what you believe in, then, yeah, you might find this will be impactful for you.

Speaker 1: 35:27

Well, there are plenty of people in that particular demographic. You're not going to run out of people in that demographic, are you? When people are doing these projects sometimes, oh my God, how are we going to find all the right people? How many people can you cope with, I mean?

Speaker 1: 35:41

you can only do what you can do, can't you? And, honestly, the way you talk about it, terry, I almost wish I was a younger man, who was a Christian, who would be able to come along and receive these benefits. You know, because it just sounds so welcoming and appealing what you were describing and so powerful, and I personally have got a bit of a bias at the moment about it. Might be a bias, I don't know. You tell me if it's a bias, it's a. I've got this idea that you know, in the world that we're in, men need the help, whatever help they need. They need help with their growth and with what they're trying to do, but it's very hard for them to get the right kind of help and for a lot of men, what they really need is help from other men. You go online and you're looking for help. It's all women offering all these programs and spiritual programs.

Speaker 1: 36:43

I think there's a lot that men need that can only come from other men.

Speaker 2: 36:47

You're exactly right and I agree with you 100%. One of the most, in fact. I'm going to say something and you're going to be surprised by this. I'm going to say something and you're going to be surprised by this. Some of the most unhappiest people that I know are men who are truly surrendered and follow the Lord and who have refused to continue to grow in their faith. They have kind of shut down and in isolation. They've isolated themselves and they have stopped that sanctification process.

Speaker 2: 37:23

I talked earlier that Jesus doesn't save us in order to just leave us like we are. He saves us in order to change us. He changes us into his image. It's called being transformed by the renewing of your mind, being transformed into the image of Christ, and that's God's role in our life. It's called sanctification, making you more like Jesus. Well, we can cooperate with that or we can stop cooperating with that. And if we stop cooperating with that, we're miserable because we know the truth in our mind but we're not putting ourselves in the right ecosystem where we can be changed. And God? The reason unity is so important is because God uses other people to change us. Change only happens in the context of community. That's why Jesus prayed for unity among his followers before he was arrested. He prayed for unity for them. It's in John 17. It's called the High Priestly Prayer. You can read about it.

Speaker 2: 38:15

I do actually yeah, that important, that is so powerful can read about it.

Speaker 1: 38:21

I do so. Yeah, that that important, that that is so powerful. But no one told me why it was important when I was told it in a in a class at school, but I remember it registering and thinking that's interesting.

Speaker 2: 38:28

I don't know why yeah, and you think, why would he pray that? Well, the reason is because if we isolate ourselves, we cut ourselves off from the ecosystem. That will accomplish what God wants, because true life change only happens in the context of other people. You need other people to inconvenience you. You need other people to rub you like sandpaper. You need other people to bless you and help you and encourage you, but annoy you as well. That's how it happens. That's how life change occurs. That's how life change occurs.

Speaker 2: 39:13

And so, um the most, some of those miserable people I know are men who, who they? They have firm convictions, but they isolate themselves and they wake up one day and they're 60 or 50 or 55. Their kids are growing, they're out of the house and and they're angry at how the world is shifting out from under them and they don't understand why the younger generation are so whacked out and how the world is going to hell in a handbag and they're just angry at everything and they're not cooperating with what God wants. And God wants to channel that frustration in a way. That is good, but they're so cut off from everybody that they've stopped changing. And so when you get isolated, anything can happen. You can go down some very strange paths if you're isolated, and God never wants us to be isolated.

Speaker 2: 39:50

So I know a lot of believers in Jesus who are authentic, true Christians, sincere Christians, but they're not cooperating with God in this sanctification process and they're not changing and they're stuck. And that's a pretty unpleasant place to be for both them and for their spouse and for those close to them, because they're just not fun to be around a lot. And Jesus wants us to be just the opposite. He wants us to be teachable, he wants us to be open-minded, moldable. He wants to continue to change us every day.

Speaker 2: 40:25

And so the attitude of the disciple is Lord, what do I need to learn today? How can I surrender to you and love others and become more like you, become more like Jesus? I want to say something real quick that might blow you away. Did you know that the most valuable thing that Jesus offered, that God offers you as a Christian, is not eternity with Him, is not eternal life and escape the fires of hell? That's not the most valuable thing that Jesus offers you. How many times have you heard that from a church? Because the motivation to follow Jesus is to escape the fires of hell. Right?

Speaker 1: 41:03

I have heard that yes.

Speaker 2: 41:04

Okay. So that's not. The most valuable thing that Jesus offers Now is eternal life and an escape. The fires of hell important, absolutely? Is it credibly valuable? Yes, it's important, but the most important thing and the most valuable thing that Jesus God offers us through reconciliation, through Jesus, is the opportunity to become like him. That will blow your mind if you think about that long enough.

Speaker 2: 41:31

Jesus God says I created you in my image. Sin, the fall warped everything. I've ransomed you back. I've given you the opportunity now to become my child again and you can become like me, becoming like God.

Speaker 2: 41:48

Now I'm not saying we're going to be God, no, no. I'm not saying that, no, that's heretical. But the opportunity to be transformed into the image of Christ, to become like your Father, to be transformed into the image of Christ, to become like your Father, that is the most incredible opportunity that the church is underselling. We're not geared into that. Most of the church don't understand that. Most Christian leaders don't understand that. That God gives us the opportunity to truly find authentic life, the way it was meant to be lived.

Speaker 2: 42:20

Think about it, germinate on that for a minute and I would encourage all your listeners. If you haven't thought through that, that at least merits. That idea merits a rational, thoughtful consideration of the Messianic credentials of Jesus and of his teaching, because Jesus was not just a good teacher. Jesus was either who he said he was or he was crazy, because he claimed to be God multiple times in Scripture. So he was either who he said he was or he was nuts. So one of those has got to be true. He wasn't just a good guy, good teacher, moral teacher that we can all honor and admire, because he said things and did things that you don't do unless you're God. So that would be my kind of aha moment today to leave your viewers or your listeners with something that they didn't expect. Chew on that for a few days, thank you.

Speaker 2: 43:16

God offers you the opportunity to become like him. I love that. That's beautiful.

Speaker 1: 43:18

Thank you. God offers you the opportunity to become like him. I love that. That's beautiful, very beautiful. I'm very happy that you thought to say that and to bring that in, because that is, you're absolutely right. That's something. What that does is it takes away from the whole notion of escaping disaster and more into the notion of actually becoming and transcending which of course? Truth and transcendence is what-.

Speaker 2: 43:45

It's the ultimate transcendence. It's the ultimate transcendence.

Speaker 1: 43:47

It's the ultimate transcendence yeah, well, that takes me beautifully to the next question I want to ask you, which is is there something you'd like to say to people in the world today who are leaders, whether they are officially leaders or trying to be good leaders in their own lives? Because these people are the sort of people who listen to this podcast, because they are trying to be part of the solution. Some of them are Christians, some of them are not. You know, this is a non-denominational podcast. Of them are Christians, some of them are not. This is a non-denominational podcast. Is there something you'd like to say in relation to discipleship, particularly for leaders who are trying to be part of the solution today.

Speaker 2: 44:29

Yes, I would say, don't try to go it on your own. In and of ourselves, most of us have very little to offer. Anybody who's ever been successful has done so with the help of those who went before them and who advised them. In any sector, as we talked about before, and we can talk about whether it's Warren Buffett or Stephen Jobs or any of the world changers that you see around you, people who are shaking things up and making a difference. They'll all point to a chain of mentors they've had, and usually one or two key. And so I would say, don't humble yourself. Acknowledge that in and of yourself, you don't really have the answers, and seek out truth, and not just you know. Seek out what's functional.

Speaker 2: 45:16

I believe that, as the creator of heaven and earth and of life as we know it, that God's values are functional and God's teachings and Jesus's teachings are functional, and I wouldn't, if you've never explored the messianic credentials of Jesus, explore that. And if you have, great. But if you haven't, please do that, because, like I said, great. But if you haven't, please do that Because, like I said, he's either who he said he was or he's nuts, so you can't just ignore him and say, well, he's a good guy and he's like one of others. No, if that's your opinion, you don't understand what he said, so dive into that.

Speaker 2: 45:52

Some of the greatest minds in all of human history have come to faith as atheists and found that truth to be powerful, and that have given their lives to him and become followers of Jesus, disciples of Jesus. Yeah, and then, for those that are stay humble, be teachable. Don't ever stop being humble and teachable, because he saves us in order to change us, and we all need to make that uh attempt every day, because it's a mean and nasty world we live in. It's tough, it's hard beautiful.

Speaker 1: 46:28

Thank you. And my next question, which I ask all my guests we've talked about quite a lot today around discipleship um. Has there been a favorite part of our conversation today for you?

Speaker 2: 46:42

I don't know. I guess just being able to talk about how much God loves us, you know, that's the most important thing at the end of the day.

Speaker 1: 46:53

Yeah, beautiful. Thank you, and would you like to leave our listeners with some sort of? You've given them some advice, which is great, and I wonder if you'd also like to leave them with a reflection question to take away with them that will help them to connect more fully with what you've been sharing with us today.

Speaker 2: 47:14

Hmm, well, it's really kind of, um, maybe it's somber and deep, but, uh, I would say that you know, as the older you get and I'm in my 60s now and the older I get, the more the reality of the finality of life starts to become, uh, more real. And my body doesn't work like it used to, I can't do the things I used to, and that's very humbling and sobering. And more of our friends are passing as we age and the finality of life becomes more real. And I would just encourage people, if you've never stopped and thought through the idea of giving an account for your life and answering what did I do with the life I was given? And asking some of the deep questions about who am I, why am I here, what is my purpose? How can I make my life matter and make my life count? If you've never done that, and especially if you've never in terms of the claims of Jesus, if you've never done that, please do that. You owe it to yourself to do that. That would be my challenge for people. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 48:37

Terry, today has been a fantastic conversation. I really loved it. Thank you so much for coming and sharing your grounded wisdom and experience, and your firm and compassionate, powerful ideas.

Speaker 2: 48:54

I want to say one thing before we've begun. I should have this Hold on one second.

Speaker 1: 48:58

All right.

Speaker 2: 48:59

So I brought this. I actually forgot to mention this. This is a book. I wrote it's called Wisdom. Yeah, it's Life Lessons from the World's Widest and Richest man and it's available. This is a hard copy, the paperback's on Amazon. It's a treatment of the book of Proverbs into 31 chapters, 31 areas that it speaks about life and family and business and spirituality and different areas of life, wisdom life lessons from the world's wisest and richest man, who was King Solomon. So people can find that on Amazon if they want it.

Speaker 1: 49:33

Fantastic. Well, if you care to send me the link, I will put it in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 49:37

Okay, great.

Speaker 1: 49:38

It's easier for people to get the book, so everybody get the book, read the book and maybe go and lie in a darkened room and reflect for a little while after listening to this episode, because there have been some very big ideas banded about. Thank you again, Terry, and have a wonderful, beautiful day.

Speaker 2: 49:55

Thank you, Catherine.

Speaker 1: 50:13

Thank you, catherine, transformation Coaching, pellewa and the Freedom of Spirit Workshop on beingspaceworld. Have a wonderful week and I'll see you next time.