Ep 184: Enzo Dal Verme ~ Meditation, Presence, Authenticity & Photography

Enzo is a Portrait photographer powered by tofu. Published on Vanity Fair, l’Uomo Vogue, The Times, Elle and more ~ which has been fun ~ Enzo is now heading toward new horizons, leading the Portrait Photography Retreats in Tuscany, a transformative journey of self-discovery and personal growth.

Enzo shares his transformative journey with meditation, a practice he's nurtured for over 35 years. Exploring how meditation can be a powerful tool for self-awareness and growth, offering a sense of calm and presence amid life's chaos. Enzo's personal experiences enrich our understanding of meditation's flexibility and depth, emphasising its role not as an escape, but as a means to engage more fully with the world around us.

Uncoverings the fascinating intersection of meditation and photography, where mindfulness meets creativity. Enzo reveals the dual nature of the fashion photography world, where chaos and identity can both liberate and confine, and how meditation helps him navigate these waters with authenticity and clarity. Illustrating how mindfulness sharpens his creative edge, enhancing the quality of attention and connection he brings to his work.

The episode takes a profound turn as we discuss the art of capturing inner truth through photography. Enzo shares techniques for moving beyond surface-level portraits to reveal the authentic essence of his subjects. This exploration draws parallels between photography and meditation, both of which seek stillness and deeper understanding. Finally, we touch on the dynamic nature of life, likening it to a kaleidoscope, and celebrate the enriching potential of Enzo's creative retreats that blend photography, meditation, and nourishing practices. A conversation brimming with insights and gratitude.

Where to find Enzo:
Portrait Photography Retreats website: https://www.photography-retreats.com/

Portrait Photography Guide Free Download: https://www.photography-retreats.com/blog/download-for-free-the-portrait-photography-guide

Portrait Photography Retreats Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/photographyretreats/

Enzo Dal Verme Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/enzo

Chapters

• 0:02 Exploring Meditation and Presence
• 13:33 Integrating Meditation and Photography
• 18:45 Capturing Inner Truth Through Photography
• 35:41 Exploring Creativity and Flow
• 46:22 Gratitude and Support in Conversation

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Truth and Transcendence, brought to you by being Space with Catherine Llewellyn. Truth and Transcendence, episode 184, with special guest Enzo Dal Verme although I probably have not pronounced that correctly and now Enzo has come on today to talk about bridging between meditation and real life. Enzo is a portrait photographer, powered by Tofu, apparently published on Vanity Fair. Powered by Tofu, apparently published on Vanity Fair, l'homme en Vogue, the Times, elle and more, which he has found great fun, but is now heading towards new horizons. He leads the fantastic portrait photography retreats in Tuscany, which are a transformative journey of self-discovery and personal growth. So if you want to find out about those, go to photography-retreatscom and on there you'll be able to find out all about that, and you can also contact Enso and have a chat with him and find out more about it if you need to do that, or just book. Honestly, these sound like so fantastic. So, enso, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Speaker 2: 1:30

Thank you for inviting me. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 1:33

Excellent. So I was slightly on the back foot today because I had everything all set up and came in all prepared, thinking right, I'm ready. 20 minutes early and the power had gone off and everything was off. So I then transformed from a calm professional podcaster into a panicking third world tech victim, trying to get everything going, and thankfully, enso was terribly graciously gentlemanly about it and waited for me. So thank you for doing that, and so it happens, doesn't it?

Speaker 2: 2:08

I mean, very often you, you think you have everything, everything under control, but you don't. We don't. That's, yeah, it would be great, but no, it's not like that exactly now.

Speaker 1: 2:20

You are someone who clearly who meditates. Um you know, do you think if I did more meditation that I'd be able to cope better with situations like that?

Speaker 2: 2:32

Maybe I don't know, because sometimes you get really annoyed by things, and it is true that people that meditate tend to be more calm and be less reactive, but this is not their rule. I know people that have been meditating for years and sometimes are full of rage. It does happen, so we are human. That's a good reminder, isn't it, that the goal is not to become.

Speaker 1: 2:59

That's a good reminder, isn't it, that the goal is not to become, you know, a total sort of expression of equanimity the entire time, and that's a comforting thought.

Speaker 2: 3:22

And so how did you get into meditation and how has it been important for you? Yeah, meditation is a big part of my life and I started meditating some 35, 36 years ago and I've been experiencing different kinds of meditation and I also have to say that I haven't been meditating regularly, as you would expect. Sometimes I totally skip meditation. Other times I meditate twice a day. I tend not to give rules to myself with this, because meditating is a pleasure and it's a practice.

Speaker 2: 3:57

Sometimes you really don't feel like doing that and if you are a beginner, it's good to force yourself a little bit into that because it's it's really it's a practice. But when you are experienced, um, yeah, I think it's it's possible to skip. Sometimes, actually, and, and to be completely honest, I have to say that in a moment of my life I I almost had to say to myself do not, not meditate, because it was a sort of for a period it was sort of escape, like, oh, I feel so good meditating and I won't do anything else. So you know, it's not very easy to say what you have to do or what you don't have to do. It completely depends on the person on and where this person is yeah, that's that I.

Speaker 1: 4:49

I love that because that that sort of reminds me that, um, anything can become a piece of comfort. Yeah, as opposed to a stretching and deepening experience and I don't think I've heard someone say that about meditation before, but I get that, and you mentioned as well that when you're experienced, you can relate with it in a different way. So would you think, when someone is first learning it, that it is helpful for them to try and be much more regular about how they're doing it?

Speaker 2: 5:26

I would say so because when you're not used to meditate, it can be pretty hard. Normally in a class, when you do a class of meditation, you're sitting and then the teacher is ringing a bell and then you have maybe 20 minutes or 25 minutes of meditation or 30 minutes, and very often the beginners are there and they go like, oh gosh, when is this bell ringing? Oh no, I can't stand it. And when you are more experienced, you sit, you meditate, you love it, and when the bell rings you go like, oh no, it's already ringing, it's already time, yeah. So yeah, I would encourage people that are not very used to meditate to um, yeah, to try to try to be um, um, how can I? Not to force yourself, but to practice, to practice this. And then things are shifting, things are evolving a lot in time. At the beginning it's something and then it changes a lot with the years.

Speaker 1: 6:43

Yes, how interesting. A lot with the ears. Yes, how interesting. So I think sometimes people think that meditation is one thing that has one result.

Speaker 2: 6:51

No.

Speaker 1: 6:52

But that's not how it sounds as you talk about it.

Speaker 2: 6:55

No, I want to say something about presence, if it's okay. Yeah, we often leave a lot in our minds. We meet someone and then immediately we think about how we like this person or how we dislike this person. We compare our meeting with our expectations. We compare our meeting with previous experiences. We think already about how this meeting could evolve in the future. So our minds are very busy and we are not necessarily aware of that, but this is exhausting. It's really, it's really tiring to be so busy with our minds and and our minds are often not present. We are not present.

Speaker 2: 7:56

So when you meditate, normally what happens is that you meditate, you sit and you know that your mind is going to calm down, have a sudden thought like oh my God, did I close the window?

Speaker 2: 8:05

Or tomorrow I need to go to the supermarket, or I need to write that email, or let me call this friend.

Speaker 2: 8:13

So you become very busy. And meditating is not silencing your mind, but it's just learning how not to be a slave of your mind, because normally when you have something that comes in your mind, you follow it, you are engaged with that. You think about a letter that you need to write, and then your mind is engaging with that idea. So yeah, sure, I should write this letter, and I should write this and this and this and maybe even that and I. And then you get lost because you, you know, you, you follow this. And then there is something else that comes in your mind, and you get lost. When you meditate, what you do is you are aware that a thought is arising in your mind and you don't engage with that, and so that's that's why, when you meditate, at the beginning it's pretty hard, because you're so used to follow your thoughts. And then, when you're more experienced, you know how nice it is to have your mind quiet, how enjoyable it is, so you sit with real pleasure.

Speaker 1: 9:26

Yeah, right, so you become more comfortable with this different state of mind than you are at the beginning, and I understand that completely. I mean, I've had a number of experiences in my life, some of which you could call meditation, where there was that experience of being able to notice what the mind was doing and choose whether to follow it or not follow it. That creates a freedom, doesn't it? It does.

Speaker 2: 9:58

And going back to presence, when your mind is less in the future and in the past, you are more present and, um, we normally are not very present, but except with some exceptions, for instance, you have elite athletes that are maybe, um, a free climber or a boxer or a tennis player. You know, when you're playing tennis, uh, and, and in a very important, um, I miss a word. What do you say in a match, thank you. In a very important match, uh, you're not thinking about the emails that you have to write, you're just there playing your match exactly, and then, when you're boxing, you're not thinking about if you close the window, you are, the emails that you have to write. You're just there playing your match Exactly, and then, when you're boxing, you're not thinking about if you close the window.

Speaker 2: 10:49

You are there boxing, you are very present. And so this is for athletes, but also artists have the same. Very often, when you are an artist and you're busy with your painting or your poetry or you, the sense of time tends to fade away. You're there, you enjoy the moment and you're very present, you're very concentrated in what you do, and this is basically what happens when you're meditating. You're there, you're present, you're aware about everything because you hear the sounds.

Speaker 1: 11:22

You're aware of the thoughts that are arising, but you simply don't engage with those yes, I, you know I love that I, as you were talking, I two examples that came to my mind. One was I, I was telling you I just this weekend ran a workshop, which was, you know, a very, very full weekend, and, just like you were saying, I was not thinking about my admin and my paying them. And what's that strange black mark on my cat's back? Is it oil or is it? I just wasn't thinking about any of those things, although it was hard work. Running is fun and work.

Speaker 1: 12:05

When I got back, one of the feelings I had was how refreshing it was to have been completely away from all of that for a couple of days. And the other example was a beautiful young woman came and did some work in the garden for me today. She's the daughter of a friend. She wants to make a little pocket money and I thought is she going to hate doing this? Is she going to get really bored pocket money? And um, I thought is she gonna hate doing this? Is she gonna get really bored and hate? Because it's like it's not the exciting side of gardening? And at the end of it, at three hours, I came out and I found her. I said you've been working for three hours. You need to stop, you know. And she went. I can't believe it's happened. I really enjoyed it and she was in that mode. She was completely fresh because she'd been away from all of that stuff in the head and it is so lovely to have that. So you teach meditation now, don't you as well?

Speaker 2: 13:01

Yes, I do. I finally do, because I was trained as a meditation teacher and when I started teaching I realized I really didn't like that at all, and and for one reason, only for one reason is that my students would look at me as someone special. They would expect me to be a bit holy. You know, you're a meditation teacher, so you know everything about. You know sacred booths or whatever, and I found that extremely heavy. I didn't like to have this identity and but when you are a photographer, especially if you publish on fashion magazines and you travel the world, they expect you to have a life full of excesses and to go to parties and to meet a lot of people and to be a little bit crazy. And this sort of identity even if I'm not so full of excesses, after all this kind of identity is much more comfortable to be in because you're not letting anyone down. They expect you to be a bit crazy. So if you're not holy, that's alright, they already know.

Speaker 1: 14:15

Yeah, so it's not about being predictable, it's that they expect you to be unpredictable.

Speaker 2: 14:22

Yeah, very well said, exactly yes.

Speaker 1: 14:24

Which is fantastic. I have a little. I think that's fantastic. I have a little bit of that in myself as well. My mother was an artist. Good element of that in in in our family you know where um it's.

Speaker 2: 14:36

It's much more comfortable to be somebody where people know they can't predict what you're going to do or think so that that was the reason why I I didn't feel comfortable teaching meditation and I, to be honest, I kept meditation, my practice, as almost as a secret for years, because, um, for this reason probably, and and and also I'm a very private person, I really don't say my things to everyone. But then, at a certain point, I said to myself look, this is so precious. Now it's good if I start sharing it. And so it's already many years that I'm teaching photography and I decided to add meditation to the book because it's something that I do and it has been so precious to me.

Speaker 2: 15:23

And I was expecting a backlash, someone maybe saying oh, enzo, what are you doing? Meditation, this wobbly thing. And then, no, it didn't happen. Actually, someone was expecting this for some reason. Actually, I had a student that once came to me and said Enzo, I have a question for you, very inspired. And I was like okay, I can shoot. And she was like for you, is it more important, photography or Buddhism? And I said, well, I'm not a Buddhist, you know. And she was like, no, you're not. I was like, no, you know, I have nothing against Buddhists, but I'm not a Buddhist. She, you know, thought she was absolutely sure that I was a Buddhist, that's another aspect of the way the mind works.

Speaker 1: 16:13

Isn't it To try to have that in control by putting a label on everything? Yeah, we traveled in Italy on holiday and obviously my father knew quite a few Italians very well. He'd been over there during the war and we went and visited these people. One of the things I noticed about all of them was that they had flair. They were not particularly predictable and if you tried to put them in a box they were going to get out. So that was my limited experience of the Italian dynamic from those early years.

Speaker 1: 17:02

There's a kind of energy, I think, over here in the UK the British people have got within their sort of some people call it the folk soul, the folk soul.

Speaker 1: 17:17

I think over here the folk soul can be a little bit more predictable, mundane. You know it's part of the way of surviving, the fact we're on an island and everybody could attack us if they want to. You know that kind of trying to keep it even keel. But yeah, that so that's an aside. So you started getting into meditation for your own reasons and you were doing photography as your work and then you came to a point where you realized why not bring the two together? Yes, um, which it's so great to do that I I can tell you why.

Speaker 1: 17:51

First of all, I realized that meditation um helps my photography oh yes, please say about that, because you told me about that when we met before and it was fascinating um, I forgot what I told you actually. Well, shall I say what I remember from what you said, okay. You were talking about something about the quality of attention you were able to give to the other person and something about the nature of the relationship that ensued which then?

Speaker 1: 18:20

made a fundamental difference to the quality of the photograph that arrived. You know you found yourself stepping into a beyond the inevitable photographer photography situation. You know.

Speaker 2: 18:41

Okay, maybe still I don't see later, remember but I try. So I can say that when I photograph someone, first of all the person in front of my lenses, first thing they try to seduce my camera. They try to be pretty, they try to be nice. So what I try to do is distract them. You know, I I keep contact with them, but I try to distract them from this trying to be nice. And if I'm successful, I see what they are trying to cover up, because implicit in what they want to show me, there is what they're trying to hide. And I guess we do this every day, not just when we have the camera on us, but when I photograph someone that is trying to look extremely confident, for instance, and implicit in that confidence, there is him or her feeling a bit, maybe shy or unsure or something not confident.

Speaker 2: 19:50

Yeah, yeah, and that's one step. I could show that, but that person that my subject would be angry at me if I show this shyness. I try to go even further and see what's behind that. So what's behind, the person wants to show me, what's behind, the person wants to hide me, and normally what I find is a sort of silence, you know, a silence behind our mental noise that we have oh, I don't have to show this, oh, I have to look crazy, I have to look intelligent, I have to look, and that's interesting for me, and it's not something that I always manage to do, but I have a huge attraction for silence and so I look for silence in other human beings that are here on this planet like me.

Speaker 1: 20:40

Ah, I love that when you were saying silence, I was also thinking of the word stillness.

Speaker 2: 20:47

Stillness, yes.

Speaker 1: 20:48

Like there's a still point within each person, behind all of the noise and the flurry and the drama.

Speaker 2: 20:57

Yeah, that's what you look for when you meditate, that you know you, you switch on, you switch off your mind in a while, in a way yeah, I mean you, you, your thoughts are becoming less important and you focus more on your inner stillness. There is, at a certain point, the silence that you meet becomes louder and louder and everything else becomes less important. Yeah, and then, eventually, one day, because the first discovery is like wow, wow, there's a lot of silence here. And then later, many years later, eventually one day, you find out that you are that silence and all the rest is something that goes on top.

Speaker 1: 21:45

Yes, so you're meeting who you really are and discovering that all the stuff you thought you were is not you. Yeah, so that must be an interesting experience for someone who is being photographed by you. Have you ever had a conversation with someone about what that is like for them?

Speaker 2: 22:04

Everyone is different. Someone, I mean I'm not saying what I'm doing. I'm not saying you know, now I'm going to look for the silencing. No, because….

Speaker 1: 22:12

Now I'm going to look at what you're hiding.

Speaker 2: 22:16

No, that would be, that would be disturbing.

Speaker 2: 22:18

But what I what I heard like, um, some people told me oh, my goodness, this is me. Oh, this expression, I recognize me. But I thought I never. You know, I didn't have this expression anymore because it's something that belongs to my childhood, for instance.

Speaker 2: 22:39

So it happens that they see something that they were not expecting to see. Yes, and that's pretty nice. But you have people that really, they would not allow you to photograph anything behind their social mask and that's interesting too behind their social mask, and that's interesting too. You know, it can be really interesting to look at a picture when someone is not allowed to see anything about his intimacy. Yes, it's another thing.

Speaker 2: 23:13

And also, every time I photograph someone, I have the opportunity to see okay, this person has something that I know too, or this person is probably having an experience that I know nothing about, or this person is making me very nervous, or this person is exciting me a lot. So every time I photograph someone, I have the opportunity to know myself better. So it's not about knowing the other person, but about knowing yourself. Yeah, and as a practice, when you photograph someone, it's very important to sense in the other person how is this person feeling? What can I do to make this person more comfortable. What can I do to have a better connection with this person? But you better, don't only feel in the other person, but you also need to feel in yourself and feel how is this person making me feel? How come? How come I'm so nervous? And you don't need to process everything in that moment, but it's an opportunity for you to see things that you wouldn't see in other moments.

Speaker 1: 24:34

Yeah, yeah, so you're kind of engaging with it on layers that are much more meaningful than just does. This look good in this photograph?

Speaker 2: 24:45

It's much more layers, more subtle to it you have seen, if you see a beautiful face, beautiful smile, it can be beautiful, but it can also be terribly boring. Yes, it's just a shell, yeah, and the portraits that are more attractive for you normally are the ones where you see something like a little emotion, a little something, maybe something that you know or something that you don't know, but it's something that belongs to the intimacy of that person, something more deeper than just the shell, just the face, just the beautiful smile. That's what normally is touching us. When you're touched by a portrait, you like to look at it longer, because, after all, a portrait is what it's a language. Photography is a language. It's just a few shapes, black and white or colors on a surface. They're not even words, they're just figures, but we know them, we recognize another human being and we can read in his face or her face a certain emotion, pain, joy, whatever. So that's why it's interesting when you catch those things.

Speaker 1: 26:23

Yeah, yeah, and I get how. That's very different from simply catching the social mask, because the social mask is not about relationship, is it? The social mask is about I look like this and you don't, but when you're describing it it sounds like a much more of a much more accessible, much more intimate experience, and for me, it's very nice hearing this, because I've always been someone who hates being photographed. I just hate being photographed. And listening to you, I think I realized that one of the reasons for that is because I don't like the idea of a static image, which is supposed to represent who I am, you know, but the idea that a photograph of me is going to fall short of the truth of who I am, and I think that the search to have the perfect social faith is always going to fall short of something that is an expression of the inner person, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 27:42

So, that's why I like what you're saying, because you're talking about, you're trying to stay there with the person long enough to get to the point where something of the inner person comes through and can be captured, and that, of course, is so much more interesting. Perhaps, if I'd met you when I was much, much younger, if you were like this then which maybe you weren't, because we all evolved I might not have such a horror of being photographed.

Speaker 2: 28:18

Well, I honor your horror, because you know, after all, who wants to have a picture of himself or herself out there forever and ever. That is not accurate, maybe, or that is, you know Me myself. I'm a photographer and I don't like being photographed, especially when my students want to say, oh, I want to take a picture with you. No, thank you, no, no, no, no, because that would distract me too much, you know, and so I prefer to be there, be a teacher, and that's it In general. It's also part of my character. I'm pretty private, but some people love being photographed, so we're not saying, you know, they love being photographed, even if the pictures are horrible. They love it anyhow. But for us photographers, it is a responsibility to take a picture that is going to represent that person. Sure, we need to be respectful of the trust that that person is giving to us.

Speaker 1: 29:27

Yeah, yeah, and when you're running your retreats, you're teaching people photography and meditation, aren't you on your retreats? Is this a joyful thing for you, running these?

Speaker 2: 29:40

yes, very much would you share. Yeah, it's one of the best things in my life, I think, because I'm sharing something I love. I have the privilege of having people that are interested in that. You know, some people are traveling from the other side of the world to come here and and study with me. So what a privilege and I know what I'm. I feel pretty confident with what I'm sharing. I mean so far and I've had some students that sometimes you have some students who are a bit mad or at least a bit difficult.

Speaker 2: 30:17

So it's sometimes it's been hard for me as a teacher, but generally speaking, I love the fact that I can share what is being important for me and I can pass it on to other people and I see the results. And when I say see the results I really mean it, because people arrive to my retreat and then I see in a few days how they change. Most of the times they go out with a big smile in their heart, happy, happy, happy. And then also, what happens very often is that they write to me, and maybe they write to me after one week, maybe they write to me after one year, two years, 10 years and they say you know how important your retreat was to me. And maybe they write to me after one week, maybe they write to me after one year, two years, 10 years and they say you know how important your treat was to me. This is a pretty nice thing, you know, to know that you have been doing something that is important for someone. That's not bad.

Speaker 1: 31:13

Well, I really applaud what you're doing because I think I actually believe we each have a kind of a unique gift, and that unique gift isn't necessarily one thing.

Speaker 1: 31:23

Sometimes it's a an integration of more than one thing. And you're what you're doing is working with the meditation and the photography. You know, and the way you talk about the meditation, where you talk about the photography, there's a lot in common. The way that you talk about them in terms of the, you know the importance of that silence in the heart of it and staying with it and observing what your mind is doing. You know they're very common, very strong common themes within those. And I can only imagine that when someone's there on on the retreat, partly because you are fully in it, because you love it, and this is what you get to do and you've, and I can only imagine that when someone's there on the retreat, partly, because you are fully in it because you love it, and this is what you get to do, and you've been working with it for a long time, you know, you have the experience.

Speaker 1: 32:10

They have an opportunity, then, to go much deeper into themselves, and presumably the people who come are people who want to take photographs. Yes, so it is therefore a subset of humanity, because not everybody necessarily wants to, although everyone is taking photographs all the time at the moment but it's not the same thing at all.

Speaker 2: 32:34

But also I've been experiencing a lot of trouble in my career learning, taking pictures so I can be there when I see someone else experiencing the same, like someone is extremely impatient or someone that you know, they think, oh, I have no time, I have no time, wait, you have plenty of time. So who says that? And then they realize that they're making it up, you know, and I've been a champion of making it up, so now I can help someone else so.

Speaker 2: 33:11

I think it's really. It's really important for everyone. You know, like when you discover something that has been helpful for you, for yourself, no, at a certain point in your life, it's, it's good to share it. Maybe it's just teaching how to make a wonderful pasta dish, but it's good enough. You're sharing something that is pleasurable. Yeah, and I, right now, I feel like sharing this because the things that I learned in those years taking pictures, um, they are, you know, I find they're pretty precious, and I see that other people are appreciating that, so I, I'm very glad to share that. Yeah, yeah, wonderful.

Speaker 1: 34:00

Honestly, I could happily talk to you for hours and hours, but I've got a slightly different question now, Okay, which is if we think about what's happening in the world at the moment.

Speaker 1: 34:12

I'm not going to get into analysing what's happening in the world at the moment. Everyone has their own opinions about what is happening and what should be happening and what shouldn't be happening and what it all means and everything else. And against all of that backdrop, there are a lot of people who are in leadership roles of one sort or another. I mean your retreats. You are in a leadership role there. You're trying to help people in that way. I've got my own way of trying to be a helpful leader in my own life and for my clients. And then there are people running businesses and politicians and community leaders and all sorts of people, and I like to think most of these people are trying to be part of the solution.

Speaker 1: 34:58

And this podcast tends to attract those sorts of people to listen to it because they tend to be reflective people who are interested in learning more about themselves and learning more about being more present, being better leaders. So, is there something you'd like to say to those sorts of people in relationship to some of what we've been talking about today?

Speaker 2: 35:25

Oh gosh, what a question. Wow, okay, I do that. I say something going back to the very beginning of our conversation, when you said to me that we would like to have everything under control. But we don't. So I like to imagine reality as a big kaleidoscope that is turning. So the little tessits are moving and each one of us is a little tessit, and so we believe that when we decide something, we make it happen and we do our best to make it happen.

Speaker 2: 36:05

But you know, the kaleidoscope is pretty big and it's changing everything. So we can, of course, decide what we would like to happen and try to go in that direction, but we also have to be aware that we are part of a bigger picture, so let's say, the kaleidoscope. So the best thing we can do is is learn how to be in the flow, being the flow of the kaleidoscope, and so one moment you have a certain situation, a certain people around you, next moment you have different people around you. So that's the best way that you can handle different situations is learn how to ride the kaleidoscope learn how to ride the kaleidoscope learn how to be in the flow, how to be in the flow without really necessarily wanting to do things like cause-effect.

Speaker 2: 36:59

If I put this cause, I would have that effect? Yes, and maybe not, because there are many causes and many effects, and so you're just a little part of everything.

Speaker 1: 37:11

That's beautiful. I've never heard it put quite that way. And the kaleidoscope, of course, is such a wonderful, vibrant, colorful. I remember the first time it may not be the first time, but I remember a very early time of looking in at a kaleidoscope and I was just completely blown away.

Speaker 2: 37:28

Me too. Yes, it's beautiful.

Speaker 1: 37:30

I just thought it keeps changing and it's never the same twice. It just keeps changing and there's an infinite number of colors Because, of course, as the colors go across one another, they change, don't they fantastic? Learn how to ride the kaleidoscope? I think I need to get a t-shirt printed yes, fantastic.

Speaker 1: 37:55

at the beginning of the conversation, you said there were a few things that you'd like to talk about today. If if sort of comes to that, I feel like we've talked about some of them, but would you take a second just to ask yourself are there any really important things that you'd love to share today that we haven't really touched on yet?

Speaker 2: 38:17

Probably there are, but I'm not aware of them at this moment.

Speaker 1: 38:21

Fair enough Well in that case, if there was something that was really vital that we'd missed.

Speaker 2: 38:28

No, you don't know me. I tend to forget things, so maybe I ring you in an hour.

Speaker 1: 38:34

Oh, we didn't say anything Exactly. All right, then you'll have to come back. I don't always ask people that question, but sometimes I do, particularly with people who are very creative in their thinking as you are. I think of it as if we're going to walk up the mountain. There are many ways we can walk up the mountain and whichever way we start, there's many ways we can go the next step you know, I find talking to someone like you and other people I know very creative.

Speaker 1: 39:07

You never know what path you're going to take right or what flowers and vegetation and animals and things you're going to encounter along the way, and you always know there's an awful lot more that could have been spoken about um, so it's nice to allow the space for that.

Speaker 2: 39:27

So, uh, amazing but you know, like creativity, very often you think about being creative like, uh, people tend to think that when you are creative, you are doing something original. Uh, this stands out funny. Actually, being creative is is much more like an orientation to me, like you are oriented toward, you're open-minded and you are ready to find new solutions, to hear new stories, to know new things and and again, to be in the flow of life and to see, you know, to let yourself surprised, be surprised and, um, adapt again new solutions and new points of view, maybe without being anchored to your beliefs and to things that are done in a certain way because you always did it that way. So so that's being creative to me. Yes, not necessarily being, you know, like original or something you can be absolutely. You can do something that is absolutely neutral, but it's something that you've never done before and for you means something because you learn something new. So that's creativity in action.

Speaker 1: 40:41

I agree completely and it's a way of being rather than a recipe or prescription.

Speaker 2: 40:50

Right, I would say an orientation, an orientation over creativity.

Speaker 1: 40:55

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 40:55

Nice, nice.

Speaker 1: 40:56

Amazing. Well, and presumably when people come on your retreats they get more of this interesting exploration, yeah of course, how long are the retreats?

Speaker 2: 41:10

Five days? Oh fantastic, because I also do three days workshops and in three days normally I have people that are much more into photography. We, we have no pose, we just work and work, and work and work. Yeah, and it's very concentrated. But five days is more relaxed, and we're beginning in the morning with Qigong. I don't teach qigong. There is a qigong teacher that is doing that because, again, it's a practice that is teaching you how to be very present. Then we have a fantastic breakfast. Okay, food is very important because I like food and I like to share also, I like to share the experience, um, and then we have about 20 minutes meditation that I need, and then we go into the photography exercises, and the photography exercises are done on your own, in pairs, in triads, in groups.

Speaker 2: 42:15

There are lots of surprises. The retreat is organized in a way that you are always discovering something new. In a moment, you need to be very concentrated and don't interact too much. In another moment, you really need to explore how to interact with other people. So it's a very nice experience For me. Teaching, I love it, but so far, everyone told me that it's a very nice experience and I have people that came back over and over many, many times, because they really like it. So they want to do the experience again, maybe after a couple of years. It's now 14 years that I'm teaching it. It's really something that I'm teaching it. It's really something that I'm so glad I'm doing.

Speaker 1: 43:06

Well, I'm glad you're doing it as well. It sounds very nourishing, actually Nourishing for the soul, yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:15

In my photography. If you ask me, why do you photograph? Because I like to get inspired by the things that I photograph and I like inspiring the ones that are going to look at my pictures. So inspiration is something that is crucial in my profession, and I think that when I teach, I'm also inspiring my students because I'm suggesting new points of view, suggesting things, and that's I think it's a big part of my life. For other people it's different.

Speaker 1: 43:51

Wonderful, wonderful. Well, I'm just going to remind everybody where to find you, okay, which is photography-retreatscom, and I am going to put that in the show notes as well. Wonderful, and so we've talked about a lot today and I've loved it, which I thought I would Me too. Has there been for you a favorite part of our conversation today?

Speaker 2: 44:16

Ah, wow, I don't know, I don't know, I'm sorry, I don't know, I don't know, I'm sorry. Actually, I enjoyed it all. I have to confess that there are parts that I enjoyed less, and it's when I realized that I said maybe a plural instead of a single. Did I make a grammar mistake? I do lots of grammar mistakes and I'm a bit critical, so my super ego is attacking me like, oh, you shouldn't have said that. These are the parts that I feel less comfortable. But all in all, you know, like that's, everything was really nice and I'm so glad I met you.

Speaker 1: 44:55

You too? Yes, thank you. I always ask that question because these conversations are multi-layered and I feel there's such a value in pausing and saying what was important to me in that conversation. I really enjoy the sort of flowing from one thing to another To me. That is something I really really value, because I have the kind of mind that is capable of really focusing and capable of flowing as well. But the flowing part to me is so much more interesting and enlivening and freeing. So having a conversation with somebody where we're both sort of flowing back and forth and around is such a valuable experience.

Speaker 2: 45:47

It is, it is yes.

Speaker 1: 45:48

I'd like to recommend it to listeners. You know everybody listening. If you have someone in your life or you just meet somebody on the bus or the train where you're able to just flow in a conversation and you find moments in it where you just don't know where it's going, and that's okay, even if it might be a little bit scary. That is incredibly nourishing for the soul and it is for the other person you're talking to as well. So highly recommended.

Speaker 2: 46:17

I agree.

Speaker 1: 46:19

So really, really good. I think if we carry on now, we're going to be going into another whole conversation soon, which will be so easy and so much fun.

Speaker 1: 46:32

So thank you so much and again, thank you for being so gracious at the beginning with my tech thing which happens and this has been such a delight for me and thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for inviting me, Catherine, Thank you for listening to Truth and Transcendence and thank you for supporting the show by rating, reviewing, subscribing, buying me a coffee and telling a friend. If you'd like to know more about my work, you can find out about transformational coaching, Pellewa and the Freedom of Spirit workshop on beingspaceworld. Have a wonderful week and I'll see you next time.