Ep176: Jason Lange ~ Brotherhood, Connection & Every Man Should Be in a Men's Group!

What if the key to unlocking your best life lies in connecting deeply with others? An enlightening conversation with Jason Lange, a men's embodiment coach and evolutionary guide, who reveals the transformative power of men's groups. Jason recounts his own struggles with authenticity and connection during adolescence and how these experiences propelled him towards discovering the invaluable support of men's groups. Learn how these communities can not only help you find clarity in your purpose and relationships but also offer a sanctuary from societal pressures.

Throughout our discussion, we dive into the critical importance of emotional attunement and connection from childhood to adulthood. Jason sheds light on how a lack of emotional support can lead to feelings of numbness and disconnection, and how media and music often serve as surrogate means of emotional expression. We tackle the severe impact of loneliness and isolation, drawing compelling parallels to hearing loss and its connection to mental decline. Exploring how fostering genuine connections within supportive environments can significantly enhance your well-being and intimate relationships.

Explore the dynamics of men's groups and the cultural conditioning that often suppresses men's emotional experiences. Jason shares how these groups provide a much-needed space to express vulnerabilities without judgment, liberating men from the relentless expectations of masculinity. The conversation emphasises continuous personal growth through shared experiences and mutual support, highlighting practical advice for men feeling isolated. Whether through structured groups or informal gatherings, discover the transformative potential of community and the journey towards emotional health and authenticity.

Where to find Jason:
https://evolutionary.men

Chapters

• 0:02 Men's Embodiment Coaching and Evolution
• 15:45 Importance of Male Connection
• 25:26 Men's Group Dynamics and Cultural Programming
• 40:46 The Path to Masculine Growth

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Truth and Transcendence, brought to you by being Space with Catherine Llewellyn. Truth and Transcendence, episode 176, with special guest Jason Lang. Now, if you don't know Jason, he's a men's embodiment coach, a group facilitator and an evolutionary guide, which sounds fascinating. He helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their life's purpose and relationships and he believes every man should be in a men's group for the growth and support opportunities they provide.

Speaker 1: 0:48

Now, I'm not a man so I have no authority to comment on that, but it sounds like a very good idea because I actually think that for a lot of men at the moment, in today's culture, a lot of guys feel like they're in a sort of can't-win situation or feel like they might want support, but how do they ask for it? And is it okay to do that? And are you a real man if you do? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And they're surrounded by people telling them to express their feelings and bring up their feminine side, which may or may not be the most helpful thing for people. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm delighted I just am delighted Jason's come on, he's a certified no More Mr Nice Guy coach, which also sounds fascinating and has trained and studied with some fascinating people, for example, john Wineland, dr Robert Glover. You're going to have to tell me, jason, how to pronounce this one. Jun-po-ro-shi is how to pronounce this one Junpo Roshi, is that right?

Speaker 2: 1:48

Perfect, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:49

Excellent, that's a first Tripp Lanier. And, of course, ken Wilber, who probably everyone listening to this knows about. Ken Wilber, before I even welcome Jason, welcome Jason. I'm going to tell you where you can find him on evolutionarymen, so that's really a clue there as to what he's offering. So, jason, thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm really excited to have you here today.

Speaker 2: 2:18

Yeah, I'm so pumped to be here, catherine, thank you for having me.

Speaker 1: 2:21

Excellent, and I know that you've just been running a retreat a week ago and then you're off to do another men's group tomorrow, so you're right in the thick of the work you're doing, which is just so amazing. How did you actually get into doing this work in the first place?

Speaker 2: 2:41

Yeah, you know, my journey of men's work is my journey in a sense that it really goes up.

Speaker 2: 2:48

But as I, you know, like many people do kind of got into my formative teenage years, started to realize, wow, okay, some things I experienced were a little different than other people and primarily what happened for me is, you know, I went through puberty and my hormones were coursing and became attracted to the opposite sex, in my case but found that I just had no capacity to know how to talk to women, how to connect to women, get very anxious and uncomfortable in my body and got pretty stuck, stuck with like I couldn't figure that out and saw my peers kind of having relationships and experiences and that led me to really looking at like why is it I don't feel good in my body and why is it I feel so uncomfortable around women, which then, you know, traced back into my childhood and some neglect and experiences. I had that really kicked off, an inner journey for me of growth and wanting to figure out like there's got to be a better way for me to be in the world that doesn't feel so bad. Essentially, Amazing.

Speaker 1: 4:16

Well, that sounds, you know. So sort of. How old were you when you started to kind of realize that this was something you wanted to look into properly?

Speaker 2: 4:27

Yeah, pretty early in my life so, you know, 16, 17, I started feeling, you know, something's not quite working in me the way I want. And then, you know it was right. When I went off to college I discovered my first Ken Wilber book, and so the mind philosophy was kind of my first entry point into trying to try just to figure out why I was the way I was. And that was a journey that eventually took me to working for Ken and his organization in Boulder. Just this intuition of, hey, I don't know what I need, but I feel like if I go to this place, people are going to be able to guide me to whatever it is I need to heal.

Speaker 2: 5:10

And that's actually what led me to my first men's work and men's groups. I got really lucky in my twenties, uh, in that community, to come across men's work and get into my first men's group, which was then combined, you know, admittedly, with discovering somatic therapy and really coming into my body and my self in a way I really hadn't before and surfacing a lot of old, just emotional pain and discomfort. That was really, you know, influencing the way I did show up in relationships and intimacy and with touch and um, it just kind of kept going from there in terms of I got into a group, I got around other men, I had the first experience.

Speaker 2: 5:54

You know I often tell this tale of like sitting in a circle with one of my mentors and, um, kind of looking at him and thinking, oh, you know, I was like 26 at the time, so it's kind of funny to think, but it's like, oh, that's what I want to be when I grow up. And what that really was was just seeing his presence, how he breathed, how he related, how he held himself, how he related to his wife. I was like, wow, whatever he's carrying, I want some of that. How do I get that? And that was really transformative in me and my experience of connecting with other men in men's work and being guided deeper.

Speaker 2: 6:37

And then, because of my men's group, I went off and pursued some artistic passions in Los Angeles for 14 years. First half of that I kind of let go of all the transformative work and was just focusing on things, but then quickly discovered like, oh, I don't do well without that support and created another group for myself in LA. And then a few years into that just you know I was just talking about it so much Like it was literally one of the most important things in my life that guys started asking me like, hey, can I join your group or can I come? And that group I was in in LA we met in my friend, he was a therapist, his office and we could literally only fit eight guys. There was just not room to grow our group. So I started leading from my living room, started leading groups and just offering them and it really just took off from there.

Speaker 2: 7:28

That now it's, you know, kind of. My biggest passion is, yeah, every man should be in a men's group, for so many of the reasons we're going to talk about today. But short of it is I'm so passionate about the work because it's what has transformed my life and I'm still in it. So you know, the group I'm going to this week, that's my group. I go there for support. I'm not holding space for other men.

Speaker 2: 7:49

Other men hold me at, and, uh, I'm still on this journey too.

Speaker 1: 7:54

Totally Well. You're still evolving and growing, as we all are, aren't we? And I think the minute somebody thinks right, tick, I've done it now. That's when things start to go wrong.

Speaker 2: 8:05

Yes.

Speaker 1: 8:14

And I say that as someone who has had that moment in real life. No, catherine, someone put a very funny meme on Facebook you know how sometimes people put memes on which is about me. I said this and then someone else said this, and someone put up me. I really think I've grown, I really think I've understood myself now. I've evolved, I'm transcending, and then it's the universe. No, Totally.

Speaker 1: 8:35

End of discussion. It was very, very funny. So, yeah, I love that. And also in the way that you speak and I noticed this when we spoke before you are so present in your communication, in the sense that you're sort of feeling as you're speaking, as you're speaking as you're feeling, which I think is a real art that few of us manage to sort of do that, and the only way to get to doing that is the path of experiencing what you're experiencing, isn't it as you go? You can't just find it in a book, even a Ken Wilber book, which are fantastic Shout out to Ken Wilber fabulous work. And I think it's extraordinary that you, at that young age of 16 or 17, recognized what was going on as an opportunity for growth and learning, rather than drinking a lot meaningless sex. I'm not going to ask any private questions about whether or not you did have meaningless sex, but you kind of went the route of growth, whereas some people don't get that insight until they're much older, do they?

Speaker 2: 9:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:50

And was there anything? If you look back at that time, do you have any insight into why it was that you kind of made that choice then, rather than, as I suspect the majority of people do, just trying to bludgeon your way through somehow? I did at that age Any idea why you kind of took a different path.

Speaker 2: 10:16

You know, that's a great mystery to me, in a sense that, you know, I would like to say I had something to do with it, but I think a lot of it was just luck.

Speaker 2: 10:25

Like you know, the right things just came to me at the right time. That kind of gave me a trajectory forward and, um, one thing I will say is that, um, related to that is one area despite all my challenges, I've always just been so blessed is I have always had strong male community. So, even though I didn't know, you know, I was in a lot of pain around connecting to women. Then, like, I had my group of guys, like in high school, you know we were kind of nerdy, not not so comfortable in ourselves, but there was like a bond and I, you know, I got lucky again in that I can remember I didn't know what this was back then but you know, sometimes we would just gather around my buddy's fire in his backyard and there was a different energy to it of, you know, particularly back then, not having had any of this modeled for us. I think fire in particular is liberating for a lot of guys because we can kind of speak into the fire. Yeah, 100% Of like what we're feeling. It like gives some permission and a container, and so you know, some vulnerable stuff would sometimes come forward and there's just an energy of we're here together and I think having that context was was so transformative for me. And you know, it's one of those things where, like it's funny when I think back to it but the way my life played out, I had to go to a different high school than middle school in elementary school. So when I switched to high school I was one of the people that like knew nobody, because pretty much everyone I'd grown up with was going to a different school. And you know it was. It was kind of shy and awkward, so that first year I didn't have a lot of friends. But it just came down to literally a kid sitting in front of me, um, in my um biology class class, freshman year, asked me to borrow a video game game over to my house and like that was my inroad there. But had I not sat by him, I could have feel, you know, a very true different trajectory because it happened for me where I also would have had isolation with men. So I think I was just kind of lucky in a sense that yeah, I really just feel lucky in that I know many men in particular whose trajectories went a different way because that's what they had available to them.

Speaker 2: 12:38

I think that's one of the pains I definitely see with a lot of men right now is we'll reach for the only medicines we have access to, and unfortunately, in our culture, one of the most common medicines we socially accept for men is booze or weed, or porn or masturbation, and these are, you know, just the tools that men are reaching for when they have no other ways to regulate themselves. It's like, well, this is what's available and what's. You know, it's crazy to me that booze is the one we've settled on as a culture, because it's so just, can be so hard on the body when you really study it, but it's like, yeah, we're good with that, and so a lot of men, you know, turn to that, and there's a history of that in my family as well. So I think I had some awareness of that. But again, I just feel like luck.

Speaker 2: 13:26

You know, something was, something was being nice to me along the way, even though you know there were parts that didn't feel so good in my journey. I got access to things and you know I will also say I think I was just lucky, being of a certain generation, in that as certain of these curiosities came up for me. You know it was like when I was in high school. I think Amazon had really just kind of popped in like 97 or 98 and I could just go online and order any book, like even the weirdest, most esoteric stuff. And you know that wasn't necessarily possible in generations past, particularly being out in the middle of suburbs like me, where there was there was no you know kind of transformational community or energy. So I think coming um of age while there was this huge shift in information access globally happening also supported me in terms of then having the ways to, you know, find my way to what I needed yeah, fantastic.

Speaker 1: 14:29

Well, I, I, I think that thing about luck and, uh, what comes into one's space is something that anybody can really take that and and think to themselves yeah, but do I notice it? You know, do I respond to it?

Speaker 1: 14:45

and I, you know, I've really noticed that in in life there's that thing. Sometimes I look back and think, oh god, there were things offered me that I didn't pick up on, you know, in other times when I did pick up on it, you know. So I think, yeah, that's so. I take that when you say you feel you feel lucky, you know, and and so forth, um, and also I'll just add to that the other ingredient of you know, do you? Maybe you were lucky and you noticed the stuff and you were sure. Thank you. Yeah, you know. And of course, you know, when we summarize a life, there's many ups and downs in the life, aren't there?

Speaker 1: 15:21

so you know absolutely people say to me oh, my god, you've had such a great life, you know, and I'm going, yeah, but you know we're talking quite a few decades here and there's some bits you haven't heard about and you're not going to know, because, yeah, you know.

Speaker 1: 15:35

Okay, they were valuable learning for me, but you can get your own, you know, learning material from somewhere else, so I think that's important to keep in mind. And just coming back to when we spoke before, we were talking about the theme of connection and that was a very, very strong theme for you. Did you connect in with that right at the beginning in your mid to late teens, or is that something that came through later?

Speaker 2: 16:05

Yeah, I mean, the awareness of what was happening kind of came later. But you know, again, it actually all does kind of swirl together in that, like I said, like I didn't come from a negative family in and my parents didn't really have the capacity to bring a certain type of emotional attunement and connection and presence. So it's kind of like we just kind of grew up in the same house Normal family then. Yeah, yeah, yeah right, but there was, yeah, there wasn't a lot of that interiority.

Speaker 2: 16:42

So, particularly being attuned to. And you know, in the work I do now and as a parent, it's so clear to me, like that's one of the most important things we can get from our families is when we're attuned to. That's how we learn to attune to ourselves, like what our inner experience is is we learn that as kids by that being reflected by those that have more consciousness than us. And I didn't really have that. So a big part of my journey, you know, going into my twenties, was just feeling numb. You know, what do you? You know, what are you feeling? I don't know. You know, like that, it took me decades to be able to answer questions like that and have that connection to my body and that's connected to connection, I would say, in that, because I didn't have a whole lot of connection and you know, unlike a lot of guys that work with, I didn't have particularly negative experiences.

Speaker 2: 17:34

I was raised in kind of the Christian church. It was just kind of like bland. You know I didn't. I just didn't get anything from it that you know. Other people I know get a lot from it.

Speaker 2: 17:43

I didn't Um, but so for me, you know, feeling kind of numb in my body, you know I had connections with my friends, but I didn't know really know how to go tons deeper under the surface Cause I didn't really know what my inner experience was then. In a sense, the first place I started having like genuine state experiences of like just feeling more, feeling more connected, feeling more in my body was through media and particularly music. Initially connection through music, going to concerts, and that was part of my gateway, and one of the artists I liked at the time was how actually now that I think of it was how I discovered Ken, because he was super into Ken and so it was like that osmosis thing and heard him talking about it. So then when a book showed up, I I was like, oh, I got to read that, but there wasn't a lot of connection for me, and so that feeling of loneliness, I think, particularly then got accentuated because I felt that the most acutely when it came to intimacy.

Speaker 2: 18:45

You know, not being in partnership with someone. I saw some of my friends, you know, having that time, spending that time with a partner, and I didn't have that. So while I had friends, you know, there was a lot of time I just felt alone and kind of disconnected in a sense. And then it's become, you know, one of the ways I see men's groups serve men the most, particularly these days, is starting to plug that gap, that connection gap. A lot of work I do with men, probably because it was a big part of my journey, is around relationships and intimacy and being able to find and attract the partners they want in life. Just something I've seen is the more connected we get, even just to other men, the better the quality of relationship we're able to create with an intimate partner. Because I do see a lot of men who, because of the way society is structured particularly, I think with men, that we're more vulnerable, I think, to tendencies of isolating and disconnection and whatnot. For a lot of guys, the only place they feel permission then to connect, particularly particularly emotionally, is with an intimate partner, and so this paradigm comes up of well, I'm terrified of being alone, so I'm going to jump into any relationship that's possible and stay in one. Oftentimes that is not healthy and not conducive to, you know, safety and that starts to shift as men get connected in other ways. There's, you know, for better or worse, like there's more discernment in terms of, wow, if I'm going to really dive in with someone, it has to be healthy. You know, I don't want to be tossed around or treated poorly or in a certain level of volatility that a lot of nice guys I work with in particular, they will do because they're so terrified of, if not, this person, then I'm going to be alone and then I have no connection in my life. And, having lived that way, it's hard right, and the stats are pretty mind-blowing in terms of all the research on loneliness and isolation, in terms of, um, right, all the research on loneliness and isolation, that it it's like just as deadly as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day, as being morbidly obese, like it actually shortens your lifespan pretty significantly. Um, for men it's, it's not just like a, you know, a victim me oh, I'm lonely kind of thing, like some men will kind of project it's like. No, it actually will change the quality of your life if you feel alone and leads to physical disorders, mental disorders, of what happens right, and you know, even my daughter has hearing loss, so I've gone on this whole journey with that and you know, part of what they've discovered is why it's such a big deal to diagnose. That is particularly even as you just get older, as hearing loss goes away. What really happens, what makes that often accelerate mental decline, is the lack of connection, because suddenly I'm not part of a relationship anymore and it it actually fractures people and they can go into mentally declined places. But so, yeah, the the point that you know.

Speaker 2: 21:56

You know it's like I think the stat, one of the stats I most recently read, was like one in five um american men which is kind of what this was who were unmarried in um, not in a romantic relationship report, having no close friends, and it's just going up over time. I think because of post-COVID and the pandemic and work from home and just so much of our communal ties in our society, at least here in the States and the West, are kind of dissolving. The ways that we used to connect and bond and be in community are kind of dissolving the ways that we used to connect and bond and be in community. And again, I think there's just part of the male culture we're kind of acclimated to for better or worse makes men more susceptible to that, because we're just without the training we're more likely to feel competitive, to not feel in connection, to not build relationships, and so, as the culture has changed, I think it's hitting men the hardest. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:55

Yeah Well, I feel that as well, because I'm very aware of the fact that there's been massive leaps forward for women, women becoming more independent, more self-reliant, economical leaps for them as well.

Speaker 1: 23:09

So they can afford now to be a single mother or they can afford to get out of a relationship and they can afford, and also with technology, they can actually manage many more aspects of life, using technology to help them do it, and household equipment and all of the other things. You can actually manage an awful lot now that you couldn't before, which means you can do it on your own. And I think for some men this comes as a bit of a shock because then suddenly, well, you don't want me to give you financial security, you don't want me to tell you what to do with your life. What do you want me to tell you what to do with your life? What do you want me to do? Yeah, and I think that's very hard on men and I actually look sometimes at the different offerings that are out there. You know workshops and programs and this, that and the other.

Speaker 1: 24:09

And the vast majority of them are worded for women. They're pitched for women or for for the soft side of a person. They're not talking to men, not as men. They're talking to a fantasy version of a man which is essentially a woman in a man's body, which is not a real thing, which is essentially a woman in a man's body, which is not a real thing. So I'm not getting into gender reassignment stuff here, just to knock that on the head in terms of what I just said.

Speaker 1: 24:36

So, yeah, I think you're absolutely right and I also think it's something that men need other men to be saying this. They don't need women to be saying this, they don't need another mother. I mean, they might need another mother. I mean they might need another mother, but you know that I think for a lot of men, that's not what they're looking for, is it? They need that, and I love that thing you said about being around the fire with your friends. You know that, like the beating heart of the fire and you guys are around it, you can chuck what you're saying into the fire. That's an incredibly powerful, very masculine principle image that I just thought that's. That was really exciting and really powerful. Um, women can't provide that for men, men, you know, men have to provide something for each other, don't they?

Speaker 2: 25:24

yeah, I think it's the.

Speaker 2: 25:26

You know I'm like I beat the drum of men's groups.

Speaker 2: 25:30

But you know, really any kind of group can be powerful, but there is, whether it's a men's group, a women's group, a BIPOC group, a queer group there's something that happens when we're in a container with other people who have been shared, who have been raised in a shared cultural context, as us Doesn't mean everything has to be the same, but I think part of what I see liberating be so liberating for men is just kind of the exhale of I don't have to like all this other stuff that I have to do out in the world or sometimes engage with women around, like it doesn't have to be at play in a group, and I've seen that relief happen with women when they're just with women men.

Speaker 2: 26:07

It doesn't have to be at play in a group, and I've seen that relief happen with women when they're just with women men, when they're with men and all kinds of configurations, and not that we have to only be in these groups, but I think there is some relief I just see with men when they're you know I I talk about this kind of an extreme example, but I've seen it many times now of you know, sometimes the, sometimes the level of internalization and burden that men hold. And you know, I know it's changing. But I think statistically you know, suicide has been more of a male oriented, like I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers are higher for men like this just this idea that sometimes it's like life is too much.

Speaker 2: 26:48

So I just went out this idea that sometimes it's like life is too much. So I just went out like I just went out and I've just seen firsthand the power of what happens when a man's sitting with another man and maybe brings that forward. Like you know, there's times I've just thought of like totally giving up and just letting it all go, and when another man just breathes and looks him in the eye and genuinely can say like yeah, I've been there, I totally get it. I know that feeling and there's no like trying to fix it or make it wrong or even freaking out about it. It's just like, yeah, I know what that's like.

Speaker 2: 27:21

There's always this just like yeah there's that deep exhale that I see really become possible in that shared container for men of just the pressure that we often feel rightly or wrongly. You know, some of it's self-generated like I'm not going to pretend it's not and some of it's cultural. You know, one of the most interesting studies I came across recently was this wild survey they did of both men and women around what marks the transition from childhood to adulthood, and so for women, for better or worse. So I'm not saying this is the right answer, but it's. Both men and women answered this. They were like what marks the transition from a girl into a woman?

Speaker 2: 28:12

and lo and behold, most of the responses were biological yes for the women oh, she started her menstrual cycle, she's developed into her body, she can bear children. That was kind of what marked that transition. Both Both men and women asked the same question for boys to men, and it was not biological, it was more cultural and societal in terms of, well, a real man takes care of his family and can provide and do all these different things that are not just based on biology, meaning a boy can fully be mature in his physical body but still not be considered a man by his culture. And I think that's you know. It points to this idea, the man box and all this cultural programming that a lot of us guys get from a young age about what you're supposed to be, to be a man. Right, there's literally this box we have to fit in of be tough, never show weakness, don't be vulnerable, always keep moving forward. Kind of crazy. But a big one I've discovered for a lot of my guys is if sex is available to you, you should take it, and if you don't, there's something wrong with you. Like if a woman's available to you sexually, like, oh, you need to take that. There's all these different kind of checklists that we're supposed to create which then confine us. Right. It's this actual pressure and you know there's a version of that for the feminine, for women too, but I think it's particularly strong with men that we get from a young age and you know we often see it in just how people relate to their daughters and their sons. You know, daughter hurts herself. There's like a level of care and attunement. Boy like, oh, you're okay, you're fine, just get up. You know, be tough. And from a young age a lot of boys you know, stop crying, be tough, you're okay.

Speaker 2: 30:05

And then the school system doesn't particularly help of this, you know, just literally slightly different body hormones and boys often just need to move more, like they were just more kinesthetic in a sense. And we're putting these school environments where we're taught be still, whatever's happening in your body, ignore that, be still, be still. And so from a young age we start to get the message as boys that whatever's happening in your body, override that with your mind, whether that's emotionally, physically. And then we get into, you know, locker room kind of middle-aged culture where there's that just hyper-competitiveness of boys and if you share anything you might be bullied or shamed or mocked for it. And then we get into adulthood and whether it's like athletics or our jobs are rewarded for pushing harder. Ignore your body, work more hours, be tough, be tough, be tough and it just adds up over time.

Speaker 2: 31:07

So then you know, I get a lot of men coming to me and they're disconnected from their bodies.

Speaker 2: 31:12

They have no idea, like I did, how to identify or name their inner world or emotional experience, so they feel very little power over what to do with that.

Speaker 2: 31:23

Things that we do say are okay in our society, so drink it off, smoke it off, ejaculate it off, like work it off, and these are the things that men get trapped into and ultimately do not work because they never actually address what's happening inside.

Speaker 2: 31:42

And men's groups, I found, are a powerful way to start to rewrite that where, paradoxically, one of the most profound things I often see in group is when men help guide other men more into their direct felt body experience in the moment of what's happening in their body physically, which then correlates to emotionally, and then it just it like actually slows us down so we can start to feel. And men's group is often, for a lot of men I know, one of the only places where they're encouraged to do that and despite all the programming what. The other thing that's always amazed me is, once there's a safe space, there's actually often quite a bit that men have to share because they've just never had anywhere to put it, and suddenly it's just like a floodgate of stories or emotions or hurts, or fears or tensions or grief just come pouring through and we get to hold that for each other as men.

Speaker 1: 32:44

How beautiful. It's so lovely listening to this, because I I want them to have this sort of thing. I want them to have it. But of course, for us women, you know, we've all got sort of you know, mother programming and running mother 2.0 or big sister 2.0. You know. And so we, you know, we want to help the guys, but what you're talking about is something we can't, cannot do. They have to have men to do that with them. And where are those?

Speaker 1: 33:13

There are more men's groups, now more than ever. I think Although perhaps in the mists of time it could be that there were a lot of tribal men's groups that we don't know about now. The whole thing about the boy becoming a man. There have been cultures, haven't there, where boys do have that transition into manhood, but it's like young manhood, it's not mature manhood. You know, you're a young man. Yeah, but that's one of the big shifts.

Speaker 2: 33:59

Because, yeah, a lot of indigenous cultures around the world did have actual mechanisms in place for helping a boy navigate that transition, often through the guidance of the men's work movement in the 90s. He tracked this a lot again to kind of cultural reasons, of a lot shifted in the industrial revolution. Because before then you would often see boys kind of just being raised by their mothers and the women of the town up until about eight or nine, and then there would be this very conscious kind of okay, the men are going to come take you now, and boys would then start to work with their fathers, with their uncles. They would be spending time with them every day. They would get to see how does my dad deal with conflict, what is his craft? But when the industrial revolution happened, dad started going off to work in the factory, so they were gone most of the day. And then school springs up and it's changed a lot. But initially a lot of the school system was carried by women, female teachers.

Speaker 2: 35:00

So boys, many, many boys these days are raised in a context where they're not raised by men. Right, they don't actually spend time by men and it's not that that magically fixes everything, but it does provide something, and there's a lot of studies on how potent an intervention is for young boys. Even just one interaction with some kind of male mentor or role model that shows them deep presence, understanding and offers them a little guidance can radically change the trajectory of a boy's life. It doesn't even have to be this persistent 24-7 thing. It could be a coach, a scoutmaster, an uncle. These interventions really help been. A lot of that has been lost. So you find a lot of boys who are just who. When they don't get that guidance from older male role models, that's when they have to turn to their peers to try to find something and all the dysfunction of peer pressure can really take off. Um, where they're trying to create a trajectory for themselves in in that. But um point being yeah, yeah, there's.

Speaker 2: 36:12

You know what I found, catherine? That it's this like really interesting craving I think most men I end up working with connect to at a deep level. Is this actual? I call it the spinach in the teeth moment, this longing for someone to tell them, when they have spinach in their teeth, which is like this unique texture of masculine love, of like, hey, man, I love you and I see something's off in your life and I want to call you forward around it, which isn't about shaming the person, but it's. It's about bringing them forward into the moment and helping them create a plan to move through it. Like I love you too much to be okay with how you're showing up in your relationship or your job, or how you're treating yourself physically. There's like an actual craving to kind of uh, to get a little heat of like I care about you, like let's, and, as I say, how I kind of work with my guys around.

Speaker 2: 37:12

This is called the father energy we all need, you know, whether you're a man or woman. Right Is, let's figure it out together. It's just this feeling of whatever's going on, I'm with you. What didn't work? What can we? What kind of plan can we make forward? Like let's figure it out. Oh, that broke. Let's try that. Oh, you didn't get that job. Let's try that. Your relationship's falling apart, let's try that. And it's that feeling of you don't need to be perfect. I'm not going to let you just sit on your ass, so to speak, and do nothing, but like, let's move this forward. What can we learn, what can we try, what can we experiment? And when we have that masculine presence behind us. You know, as humans in addition to you know some loving feminine presence, we can really thrive and you know there's a I always.

Speaker 2: 38:00

A lot of stuff I'm thinking about these days is always around parenting as a, as a young parent myself, and again, I don't remember where it was, but there's this beautiful little research study around baby carriers.

Speaker 2: 38:12

You know those like things you can wear on your front, you can wear the baby, and again, you know cultural, beyond culture. Who knows what they found is moms tended to wear the baby facing in, so baby is nestled in close, kind of protected from the world, just enveloped in love. Dads tend to flip the baby around, face them out, like we're going to go out into the world and you're going to experience newness, novelty and a little bit of vulnerability and maybe discomfort, and I'm right here behind you. Yeah, so you're, you're going to move into the world with something supporting you from behind and I think that, again, that energy is what I find we can and recreate in men's group. But you know, another way to think about it is what I often see is we really just start refathering each other, of giving each other some of the fatherly energy we never really had for so many kids, myself included of just like a grounded presence that gives a shit and is just there with us.

Speaker 1: 39:19

Wonderful. Well, how fantastic what you're doing. Just amazing. I just have to ask you do you have like a practitioner, supervisor or a mentor or somebody like that for yourself?

Speaker 2: 39:32

No, yeah, I'm continually working with coaches myself, so I'm in programs and trainings. I don't do it every day of the year wrapped all around, that is, I'm part. I'm a. I'm a little polyamorous when it comes to men's groups. So I'm part of like five men's groups, some in person, some that just meet up to do shadow work, some that meet online. So I'm very held by a lot of men, many of whom are older than me and a little further in their life story.

Speaker 2: 40:16

Um, which has been, you know, particularly when I became a dad, was like just such a game changer to have, like the bat dial, that phone of oh my God, this is happening. I feel like I'm messing up my kid. And they're like oh, you're good man. You know, here's how that played out for me. It's going to be okay. And it's just like oh, thank you. Okay, that's such a relief. So, yeah, I'm a pretty big proponent of you. Know I think you nailed it early in the call. You know my red flags go off anytime. Someone's like oh, I've got it all figured out.

Speaker 2: 40:46

And so I'm very much in my journey, constantly, and every year I peel back another layer of the onion and now I'm just in for the ride. I'm like great, this is fun. It's never going to end Like. I'm always going to discover more about myself. I'm always going to need guidance from other people who can see me and reflect things to me in a way I can't do myself, and that's something I strongly encourage my men to look for as well. And again, part of what I see is really powerful about a group particularly a group that we know trusts us and loves us and has nothing but our best interest in the heart that same group is often the most potent group to give us feedback when we're going off course as well, and I think it's one of the greatest investments guys can make in their families, in their careers, in their intimate relationships is having that cohort of men Doesn't have to be a dozen, just a couple of guys in your life you really have that depth of connection with can be such a game changer.

Speaker 1: 41:41

Yeah, amazing, wow. Well, honestly, Jason, I could talk to you for hours and hours about this. It is fascinating, but more than that, to me it's very heartwarming, heartwarming. It just feels very good that you're providing something for men that they need and the fact that you're constantly working on your own growth and getting that support.

Speaker 1: 42:11

I would suggest is probably what makes you a very good facilitator. Thank you, you know what I mean, because you're going to be stretching what you can cope with further and further, and I think that's I would say that's very important for any practitioner who wants to work at depth. It's vital to have that support and that container. You know, whatever the support is that you need or that I need or we need, you know I've just booked myself on a workshop in October which is going to be really intense, quite stretching and demanding, and I cannot wait.

Speaker 1: 42:40

It's just so important that we keep all of that, because otherwise we end up being limited by how far we've traveled so far, and we want the people who come to us to be able to keep traveling, so we have to keep traveling. I used to have a thing I used to say was it's my job to be at least one step ahead of my clients, and then, as they're expanding, I need to be expanding faster. I can stay one step ahead. You know that's my job to do that.

Speaker 2: 43:11

Um, so I think you're saying it's spot on that's beautiful and I think that's you just encapsulated why I like to use this term guide, because it's more like a trail guide. It's like, hey, I've hiked this mountain before I'm out here with you. I can't do the hike for you, but I can walk with you along the way and say, hey, here's the route that worked for me, what feels good to you right now? Yeah, and it's exactly that like on the path together and maybe, having just been, I did a little bit before, so I can, you know, help guys that are just starting that journey miss some of the pitfalls that I tripped over in the process yeah, yeah, beautiful.

Speaker 1: 43:50

Well, I wish you were in the uk, yeah are you? Connected with people kind of around the world who run men's groups more and more these days.

Speaker 2: 44:01

Yeah, I, I have some clients all around the world and, um, oftentimes you know, for listeners, like whether you work with me or not, I'm a resource, so if you reach out can help you kind of find the way into what's available in your area. Sometimes, once you just narrow some of the terminology and things to look for and where to look for it, that there is more available now than ever and so just kind of holding the global as much as I can Awareness of what's there is a great thing to route guys to for sure.

Speaker 1: 44:34

And if somebody can't find a local men's group, um, do you do one-to-one work with people at all?

Speaker 2: 44:44

yeah, yeah, I do private coaching with guys, I run some virtual programs I'll be expanding even more over the the next years um, to just do whatever I can you know to to make it possible, because, uh, and you know, I'll also just share with guys.

Speaker 2: 45:00

Um, it doesn't take much, and what I mean by that is sometimes it's just most guys.

Speaker 2: 45:04

When I really talk to them and I ask them, they often have like an intuitive sense of yeah, there's this guy at work or there's this guy at my gym that we've when we've talked, there's just like a little more depth there, and sometimes it's just a matter of saying like hey, guys, you know, I'd love to go out sometime, get some drinks or dinner and just really talk about what's going on in our lives and to kind of set that container.

Speaker 2: 45:27

And then, like I said, once the space is there, it's a wild often how much guys have to unload and just like share and suddenly we're just like chatty, chatty, um, cause we didn't know it was possible before. So you know, a structured men's group is amazing, but really anything is, is is possible. And if you're a man who's feeling lonely and isolated in your community, what's important about that is the fact that you are almost guarantees there are other men around you feeling the same. So if you can't find something, it's like kind of say, part of your responsibility might be to start it, and that's something I also, you know, really like to support men in doing.

Speaker 1: 46:06

Fantastic. So anyone who's listening to this, if you are a man who's kind of resonating with this, you can contact Jason and you know you can go to his men's groups if you can, or he might be able to point you in another direction or you might be able to do one of his virtual things or some one-to-one work. I'm delighted to hear you say that. To just slightly shift the emphasis of what we're looking at for a moment interesting times in the world at the moment. I think we could agree and, um, in these interesting times, which are quite volatile and quite unpredictable and interesting, slash, insane. Um, there are a lot of people trying to be good leaders and trying to be good leaders in their own lives and trying to be part of the solution, and this podcast tends to attract those sorts of people. You know, people who are inquiring and interested and what I call on the expansive path and trying to help other people.

Speaker 1: 47:09

So is there something you'd like to say to those people in relation to some of what we've been talking about today?

Speaker 2: 47:21

yeah, that, um, you know I'll I'll speak to the men here. I think, just because that's kind of the theme of um, I don't think we can do this work fast enough. You know, just all things considered from my perspective, it's like the feminine women trying to hold this thing together, like literally this planet together in a sense, and there's been a bit of a gap. I think and, like you said, just like us men can, there's something that happens and there's something really important that happens when men call other men forward, that I think we're kind of coming out of a time where women were having to do that quite a bit and we actually need men to do it. Again, it's not about shaming, but it's about calling something forward in each other so we can really kind of support a thriving planet.

Speaker 2: 48:16

And you know, I'm not, I'm not of the ilk of. You know, I don't even believe there's such thing as the toxic masculine toxic masculinity. I think there's toxic people, toxic people, but even then it's not that they're toxic, it's that something has grown awry. So I like more pathological, in that we need this healthier version of all of this to come forward in that masculinity itself. I would argue right now it's not that we need less of it, we need more of it, just the healthy, connected, integrated kind, and we all have it inside of us, whether we're born in a woman's body, woman or or man's body or any configuration. These energies exist pre-culturally. You know, in a sense, there's the inhale and there's the exhale, there's life and there's death. They're just two sides of the same thing and we need both right. Both are what make the world alive and passionate and existing, and I think we're on the precipice of moving from this destructive masculinity to a generative masculinity. That's yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:32

Masculinity itself can also promote connection in life and be for the benefit of all.

Speaker 2: 49:40

So it's time, you know, just be my call of like. It's time to you know, step forward in your work. And the other thing I say to guys is, every time you step forward in a group to reveal, to ask for support, to get accountability, when you share your story, whatever that might be, you're actually making it easier for other men. I see this all the time in group that once one man breaks the dam of this is how we're supposed to be, and another man sees it, it's like the dominoes fall so fast of like wow, I didn't know I could even bring that forward. I didn't know it was okay to cry to ask for help. I didn't know I could be angry and not be scary, that I could bring my anger forward in a safe way. All these things start to change really, really fast. So here to support in any way I can, and there's just a tremendous amount of leaders out there as well, men and women, that can also facilitate this for you.

Speaker 1: 50:36

Yeah, amazing, how beautiful. Well honestly, I'd love to keep talking forever, but we can't do that. We've talked about a lot today around connection and men's groups and all sorts of layers. I mean I love all this wisdom you've accrued across the years and which is obviously still expanding. For you, it's fantastic. Has there been for you a favorite part of our conversation today?

Speaker 2: 51:02

Yeah, I think just hearing your again your reflection about kind of being one step ahead, I think contextualized something for me of why it's so important for leaders to be in the work. It also keeps us connected and grounded in a way that I think people can feel, rather than us, it's talking at you, it's oh. Here's what's happened for me and what I've. What I think you just helped illuminate for me, is just that there's so much more connection possible in that, and that's always been what drew me in the most with my teachers, mentors and leaders. When's not that they had it all figured out, it's actually when I got to feel their humanness in there. Oh, they're in this too, and to me that's actually a huge relief of like, oh okay. Even the people I think have it figured out are still figuring it out. So that's okay. So it's okay for me to be figuring it out too. So just feel like I've met a kindred spirit here.

Speaker 1: 52:03

Fantastic. Well, I'm delighted that that resonated for you. I think that's true. That's another transition. I think that's happening at the moment, which is more people who are in leadership positions or practitioner or guide positions, more and more of them, are realizing that it's not about have I arrived, it's about what's my next shift, and there's another one after that, and that's a good thing, that's a piece of joy, that's not a piece of failure, and I just.

Speaker 1: 52:32

I love it when other people are connected with that, because it's just so. It's a much happier place to be as well, I think, than the one I've made to the line, absolutely. So the final thing I'm going to ask you is oh, and actually let's just remind people of where to find you, which is evolutionarymen Guy, everyone who's listening, but men in particular contact Jason, work with him or get his advice on finding someone local to you. He's here for you and he's very approachable. I think you'd agree everybody and open, so do contact him. I think if I'd listened to this and I was a man, I would be in touch immediately, even if I didn't have any issues.

Speaker 1: 53:16

I'd be like I just want to be in your group because, it's just going to be so real and so rich and so nourishing. That's just so lovely. I'm going to invite you to consider is there a reflection question that you'd like to leave with the listeners, uh, for them to optionally consider over this next uh week, before my next guest episode comes out, and they'll have another reflection question. So is there something you'd like to leave that will help people kind of explore and connect deeper?

Speaker 2: 53:54

um, this has just been coming up in a lot of the work I've been doing, so I think, again, all humans have this, but I work with men, so that's kind of what I know. But if you notice a voice, an inner critic, self-criticism, something coming up this week, as a man not enough or doing it wrong or not as far along as you need to be Just an open inquiry of whose?

Speaker 1: 54:27

voice. Is that actually?

Speaker 2: 54:27

can often go pretty deep, pretty fast.

Speaker 1: 54:32

Whose voice?

Speaker 2: 54:33

is that? I just got shivers, thank you, very much Beautiful.

Speaker 1: 54:37

Well, thank you so much, jason. I've really loved this conversation, love what you're doing. If you're ever in the UK, let me know and find an excuse to do something. And thank you again so much for coming on. Truth and Transcendence.

Speaker 2: 54:56

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 54:59

Thank you, Catherine. Thank you for listening to Truth and Transcendence and thank you for supporting the show by rating, reviewing, subscribing, buying me a coffee and telling a friend. If you'd like to know more about my work, you can find out about transformational coaching, about transformational coaching, Pellewa and the Freedom of Spirit workshop on beingspaceworld. Have a wonderful week and I'll see you next time.