Ep 142: Roger Butts ~ Humility, Grace & Allyship

Discover the quiet strength that humility can bring to our lives and communities as we sit down with Roger Butts, a Unitarian Universalist minister and revered author. Imagine a world where humility serves as a bridge to justice and compassion - a concept that Roger masterfully weaves through tales of his own transformation from political activist to hospital chaplain. His narrative invites us on a journey to understand the true nature of humility and how it has become the bedrock of his efforts to foster inclusive societies and support personal growth.

Join us as we confront the delicate balance between advocacy and allyship, with personal anecdotes that shine a light on the pitfalls of heroism in social justice work. Discussions around 'kenosis' reveal the profound impact of stepping aside, allowing the stories of those directly affected to take center stage. Through this practice, we not only become better allies but also discover the deeper meaning of our roles within the collective narrative - an awakening to the idea of elevating rather than dominating within the sphere of activism.

This episode culminates with a moving blessing from Roger, a message offering solace and the possibility of renewal. As we reflect on the grace that threads through the mundane and the courage that blooms from regeneration, this heartfelt exchange leaves a lasting impression. We delve into the depths of everyday experiences, recognising the companionship of faith and the embracing arms of love ever-present in our lives. Let this conversation inspire you and renew your appreciation for the power of gentleness and the sanctity of stillness in our bustling existence.

Where to find Roger:
https://medium.com/@revrogerbutts
https://www.facebook.com/roger.butts80905/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/roger-butts-a1279b173/

Where to purchase Roger's book Seeds of Devotion:
https://www.amazon.com/Seeds-Devotion-Weekly-Contemplations-Faith/dp/1951694368

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Truth and Transcendence brought to you by being Space with Catherine Llewellyn.

Speaker 1: 0:18

Truth and Transcendence, episode 142, with special guest Roger Butts.

Speaker 1: 0:25

Now Roger, if you haven't come across him, is the author of a beautiful book called Seeds of Devotion Weekly Contemplations on Faith, which you can get from Grace Light.

Speaker 1: 0:38

He's also, for the last seven years, the hospital chaplain for a 500 bed hospital system in Colorado Springs, part of Centura Health. He's been an ordained minister for 20 years. He's a Unitarian Universalist, former staffer on Capitol Hill, former organizer against the death penalty, and he's had his prayers published in a variety of anthologies, which I will put in the show notes because there's several of them, and also editor and guest columnist in a variety of newspapers and contributor to Contemplative Light. So I think there are a few clues in there as to what Roger actually does with his time. So I decided to invite Roger because he's really explored and contemplated very deeply in the divinity space and, by the way, his poetry is exquisite and he has much wisdom to impart. So I just thought it would be fascinating and really helpful for us to have someone like Roger come on and talk to us on Truth and Transcendence. So, roger, thank you so much for joining me on the show.

Speaker 2: 1:52

I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for inviting me and I'm really looking forward to exploring with you in the next hour.

Speaker 1: 2:02

Fantastic Me too. So when we spoke before, we came up with a theme that we both thought was a wonderful theme to explore, which is about humility, and I'm going to ask Roger to talk to us about what that means for him and so on. Just a few words from me first. I actually think humility is an extraordinarily powerful quality or practice even, and I've noticed that in my own life. The times when I've been able to embody humility have been really transformational times for me, and I've been in a stronger position to contribute to others in those times. And it's not the same as passivity, it's not the same as weakness, it's not the same as conformity, it's not the same as the now or all those things. It's a very special, particular thing. So I'm thrilled to have us talk about that theme today. So, roger, I want to kick off straight away In regard to this theme humility. If you cast your mind back, can you remember the first time that humility really struck you as something that was important to you and mattered for you?

Speaker 2: 3:20

Yeah, you know, for me, I think I would say that I will look back at a time when I became a minister and this was 25 years ago and it struck me that humility was really important around some of my political organizing against the death penalty and for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender rights and as I got involved in the NAACP and racial justice. So when I was becoming a Unitarian Universalist minister, I was still pretty young, I was in my late 20s and early 30s and I was committed to a kind of progressive politics and I was committed to organizing and abolishing the death penalty, trying to and building communities of hope and communities of accountability and communities of social justice and radical equality and radical acceptance. And that was my energy, my jet fuel. This is really what I wanted to do in the world and, thinking back on it, I know why that was important to me. I knew why I was doing those things and it was because sometimes I would be bullied, I would see others be bullied, I would be excluded and I really had this vision for beloved community.

Speaker 2: 5:23

It's Martin Luther King Day here in the United States and he talks so much about the beloved community and radical acceptance and belonging and I was inspired by him and what I realized was that there were times when I would want to charge in, offer suggestions, offer solutions, offer my program, offer my agenda. And it was coming from a place of ego. It was coming from a place of a lack of self-awareness, it was coming from a place of I'll be the hero today and solve this problem, and it caused a couple of issues. One no one asked me to come in and be the hero. Or if they asked me, they didn't ask me to come in and be the hero. They asked me to come and contribute what I could contribute and to do what I could do, but I didn't need to take up all the oxygen in the room.

Speaker 1: 6:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:48

Right. And number two, because I wasn't super self-aware. I would chase after every issue that came along and there are so many issues and it became exhausting because in my lack of humility, in my lack of self-awareness, I would chase after the issue, chase after that issue, and it was exhausting for me and all the people that I care about. So what I talk about and there's a little poem in the book about this is the importance of what in the Christian tradition is called kinosus Self-empty.

Speaker 2: 7:37

Buddhism is full of this idea, right? Self-empty so that, so that in humility and in power and in courage and in conviction and in self-awareness, you can enter into a space without projecting, without calamity, without having your ego needs be the center of attention. This is why contemplation is so important. Right Is that you get to empty out. You get to empty out some of these things and in the process become a better ally, a better advocate, a better partner. So true also of chaplaincy. In chaplaincy, if I encounter somebody who is suffering, somebody who is sick or somebody who is in grief, and I make it all about me, that's not much ministry, that's not much chaplaincy. And so this idea of humility and self-awareness become very important in order to know your place in whatever project you're involved in, to know who you are, what you can contribute, how you can assist, how you can lead in a way that invites others in and allows for progress to be made.

Speaker 1: 9:20

Beautiful. I love how you just described that and I completely know what you mean, because I've seen that thing. You're saying about being really passionate about your mission and passionate about helping. And then you suddenly realize that when you said to taking up all the oxygen oxygen in the room, you suddenly realized that you're actually becoming an issue and all you really want to do is actually be helping, Right. So you were in your 20s or early 30s when you kind of really realized that humility was very important.

Speaker 2: 10:02

For my particular passion, right, your particular passion.

Speaker 1: 10:05

yeah, but how did that happen? Did you just realize that yourself, or did you get feedback? Or did you? Because it's quite a big insight to get, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 10:17

Yeah, and I think, probably with the help of my wife, who is a minister as well, and my congregants at the time were probably noticing that I was exhausting myself, I was running too hard, I was trying too hard in some ways, and then my friends, what I came to realize, both through study and real life is over time is that if I'm working on for the first part of my ministry, for the first many years of my ministry, a big issue that I worked on was gay marriage and GLBT issues that were coming up in the United States, and what I came to realize is that I had a story to tell in that as an ally, but I did not need to be the front and center of that story. Those who were about to be married, those who were gay and lesbian and trans and bisexual and queer, were the ones who needed to be telling those stories, the center of attention in the newspapers. Now, as a faith leader, it was important for me to be in the newspapers, which I was, so that I could send the message to both people of faith, others who were involved in this issue, that not all clergy were anti-gay, which was a misunderstanding, so it was important for me to be a good ally and a good friend to folks who were on the margins, so I wasn't the center of attention, but that their stories were elevated and lifted up. I could help bring energy to the task. I could help elevate their voices. But they already had voices. It weren't voiceless, and that was an important thing for me to learn was they had voices we just needed to take.

Speaker 2: 12:50

As a white, straight male, I have a certain bullhorn and as a minister now some people will listen to me I had to learn that it was more important for me to let those marginalized communities borrow my bullhorn so that their voices would be elevated. Now, that doesn't mean that I'm as you said in your introduction. That doesn't mean that I'm weak or diminishing my power or I'm still a healthy ego. All of those things are in play. But it's about self-awareness, so that the more important thing is not whether or not I'm in the newspaper or what have you. The more important thing is are we moving forward on this issue?

Speaker 2: 13:56

And so, as a young minister, I had to learn that it wasn't about me. And then, when I moved into chaplaincy, I had to learn that all over again in a different way. When somebody is sick, when somebody is grieving, you want to be as quiet and as intentional and as mindful as possible, to let them know that you are paying attention to them, that you're listening deeply to them, that they have an opportunity to speak if they wish to. If they don't want to speak, they don't have to. But that's a different kind of humility and self-awareness. I had to learn that there too.

Speaker 1: 14:50

Wow. Well, there's a couple of connections you've made there that I find very intriguing. One of them is the connection you've made between ego and exhausting oneself. That was the thing that showed up. Well, it sounds like you were burning out, actually, and that's an interesting connection. I wonder if people who do get burnt out I wonder if they ever stop to think is this because I'm being run by my ego?

Speaker 2: 15:19

Well, I don't know. I don't know. I've certainly seen it happen. I don't know.

Speaker 1: 15:29

Because there can be that sort of I'm the hero, I'm the rescuer that any of us can take on, regardless of what our role in life might be. I'm the one who's going to solve the problem for everybody. Yeah. And from ego.

Speaker 2: 15:46

And it's disempowering right. I mean, it's just not disempowering, it's not needed.

Speaker 1: 15:52

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:53

It disempowers other people when that's not what you're trying to do.

Speaker 1: 15:58

Yeah, that's right. Have you come across a thing called the drama triangle?

Speaker 2: 16:04

No, I love it.

Speaker 1: 16:06

You probably will recognize it. So if you think of a triangle and one corner is the victim, one is the persecutor and one corner is the rescuer, if you're in that triangle you kind of switch from one role to the other at different times. You've probably seen that. And if you watch dramas, on TV often people are just moving from one of those to the other and strapped, but all three of those are ego. Oh interesting, that's right. And the way to get out of it is to become the witness and go over the ego.

Speaker 1: 16:47

So some of what you were talking about was reminiscent that for me. So you're not wanting to be like the rescuer that's in the drama triangle, who's being the hero and whose value is all about the fact that they are more powerful and kind and everything than everybody else. Exactly. You know, you're more the witness, with the humility to then serve and support, which then helps other people to escape from that drama that goes on.

Speaker 2: 17:21

That's right, and contemplative practices right are centering prayer practices or Buddhist meditation or just meditation generally. Invite us into that space of becoming a witness, because all these distractions come at you, all these thoughts come at you and at first you want to, you know, fight them off like, okay, I will conquer these distractions and I will conquer these thoughts and I will be the best meditator in the history of the world. And meditation is competitive sport, you know, and so and so and so. But what you learn to do, you know, when you get a good teacher or mentor or study enough or practice enough, is you learn that you learn to witness and to just be at peace with us. And so there's this wonderful professor, martin Laird, at, I think, at Temple University, somewhere like that, somewhere in Philadelphia, and he writes these books about contemplation.

Speaker 2: 18:32

And you know I live close to the mountains and he compares it to. He compares this kind of contemplative practice to the mountains. You know, the mountain itself is pretty solid and pretty, you know, pretty static and foundational. And when we get meditating, all these weather patterns come in blizzards and snow and wind and rain and all of these things, and we convince ourselves that we're the blizzard and the snow and the rain, because life is so dynamic. So, but we're the mountain, we're solid, it's really, it's a beautiful image I love that.

Speaker 1: 19:26

I love that Beautiful. Yeah, there are some wonderful references in the E chain to the mountain as well, aren't there about being still like the mountain? Yes, and of course, the mountain is just as much a mountain when there's a storm as when there isn't a storm, I suppose.

Speaker 2: 19:46

That's right.

Speaker 1: 19:47

I love that yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:49

I'm very eager to identify myself as the windstorm or the blizzard or the snowstorm. All the drama, all the energy, all the craziness I'm happy to, I'm happy to get there. Contemplative practice, centering, prayer, those things invite me too. You know a stillness that, that every once in a while I get to glimpse the fact that, you know, I'm more stable, I'm not the snowstorm, I'm not the daily drama, and to touch that bit of a eternity, that bit of you know what my, my wife calls the kingdom of God, the, the family, the beloved community. The kingdom of God, that place of deep peace that day, and that place of deep belonging with contemplative practices, you can, you can really glimpse that and and really let that peacefulness settle in.

Speaker 1: 20:59

It's very nice and and I would say that's becoming more widely recognized as a practice in, in essence, in different contexts. You know, I think I rarely meet anyone these days who doesn't ever, you know, do a mindfulness session or meditate, or just sit and be Looking at the sky or whatever kind of version of it that people have found For themselves, and I think that's a wonderful thing.

Speaker 2: 21:30

Hot yoga, all of that stuff, you know, and I got a Costa Rica and, and in the spring to do some kind of week-long Yoga retreat. Well it's, it's huge. You know these things and I think it's it's so important for us because you know Capitalism whether we're in late-stage capitalism or not, you know there's this, there's this constant bombardment to define the human person as a consumer, as a taker, as a producer, as a part of you know this capitalistic kind of brined that we're in and that you only, you only matter if you've got this kind of productivity and so on. And and spirituality, mindfulness, humanism, you know, all these different kinds of religious traditions or our philosophical traditions Suggest that there's a another story, an alternative story that is important and contemplative practices can get us there and and reframe what it means to be human.

Speaker 2: 22:56

I'm with people because I'm a chaplain. I'm with people mostly when they can't be productive, when their bodies are unable to be a part of that Commerce and trade and all of these things, and they're looking back, you know, and they're looking back on their life and often when they look back on their life, they're very proud of the work they did, they're very happy for the work they did, but they talk more about love and friendship and relationship and community Then then they do about like their work.

Speaker 1: 23:43

Yeah, yeah. Well, we have different, some aspects of ourselves that want to be expressed, don't we? And that want to be nourished. So I suppose getting getting fixed on One or the other Isn't the whole story, is it?

Speaker 2: 24:00

right and it's not a balance.

Speaker 1: 24:02

Yeah, exactly, and I suppose that told somebody. I remember saying to me that you can't. You can't target being always in balance Because, by definition, a minute you're in balance, you're gonna go out of balance, right. If you're to think about it you know, like a helicopter, so you're constantly doing, you know doing, going in and out of balance. And I was the first time someone told me that I found I was very annoyed with that piece of information because I thought Do you mean I can't get to a point where I'm in balance forever?

Speaker 2: 24:38

Well, no, it'd be nice I've been. I guess it wouldn't.

Speaker 1: 24:42

I don't know, I think it could be kind of boring, I suppose as an idea it's appealing, but in reality it would probably be bit deadening in the end.

Speaker 2: 24:50

Yes, and the idea of self, you know, getting to self acceptance and getting to Just this idea of being. I think it's very important.

Speaker 1: 25:01

Yeah, yeah me too, very much so, in fact. You know, I feel like I'm understanding that better now than ever. I feel like that's an idea which is very easy to speak, but which takes a very long time to actually connect with fully. Yes, isn't it? It's yes, but when?

Speaker 2: 25:26

you're around folks who have gotten there. It's so liberating and so freeing and it's so Invitational that you just Put down your defenses, put down your guards, put down your masks, put down your roles, for you know a brief moment, and just be invited into Freedom of being you. It's, it's, it's really quite lovely. Yeah, lovely idea it is. It is a, it is a lifelong journey. It feels like absolutely, and it's a beautiful journey.

Speaker 1: 26:06

It's a beautiful journey.

Speaker 2: 26:07

It's a beautiful journey, and to have it's along the way, to bear witness with you and to cheer you along Is also quite nice. Yeah, it's also nice to have to have your to find your tribe to find your people. Yeah, I'll peel along, absolutely yeah you.

Speaker 1: 26:33

You said something A couple of times. You've spoken about humility and self-awareness. Yeah, you've spoken about them Like a pairing, almost like like. For you, they're very closely Interrelated. I'd love to hear more about that.

Speaker 2: 26:52

So, so one of the one of the books that I love to consult um is the interior castle and um by by trisa of avala and um. And trisa wrote this at the at the um invitation, just in recommendation of her spiritual director. But, um, he, he, uh, he didn't really give her an option, um, but he really wanted her to to write this down and she did. She did the interior castle Fairly quickly and it's a, it's a reflection on the soul's journey to unity, the soul's journey to connection with the divine, the soul's journey of Self-realization and self-actualization. And she imagines that there are seven dwellings, and it's not linear but they're more circular. And these seven dwellings, you begin um To become more and more and touch with that place of unity with the divine. And there's this bright light that that shines from the very center, where god is and where you are in your fullness. And you know, in the beginning it's, it's difficult, because you're still a lot of distractions, lots of temptations, lots of Not getting on the right path. But what the point? The point that she makes in this Is that before you can even begin to enter into this journey, um, which the doorway is prayer and meditation. You know, but the, the, the, the gas, the energy is, um, is self-awareness and humility. So I never use one without the other, I never use one without the other, and um, it's, it's, uh, it's just something that is, for me, aspirational. You know that she says no matter how far along you progress, no matter how far along your soul is on this journey, and we go back and forth and all over the place but self-knowledge, self-awareness, has to be at the heart of the endeavor, and it's important for activism, it's important for spiritual growth, it's important for chaplaincy.

Speaker 2: 29:51

One of the things that I say about chaplaincy is that you have to have some courage, because you never know what you're going to get on the other side of that door. When you walk into a hospital room or into somebody's home, you never know what's going to be confronting you on any particular day. They may be on their journey towards the end of their life, they may be angry, they may be sad, they might be in pain. You just never know. And so it takes courage. It takes courage to even enter into that space.

Speaker 2: 30:41

But it also takes curiosity. That's where humility comes in. Is that curiosity of what is all of this bringing up for you? What is all of this showing you? What are you learning? How are you in all of this messiness, in all of this lack of control, if I go in and I go into a hospital room and I know the person is Episcopalian and 90 and went to Harvard and all of these things right, and I begin to lose my curiosity because I think I know what is going on with that person and who that person is and what they're about and all of this, then I've already shut down any possibility for meaningful interaction. But if I stay curious, which is to say humble and open and engaged and non-judgmental and accepting, right, then we can begin to have a conversation and that person can be free to speak.

Speaker 1: 32:09

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:10

Truth.

Speaker 1: 32:10

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:12

The courage, curiosity, increased compassion. If you can put courage and curiosity, your compassion is going to go up.

Speaker 1: 32:23

Yeah, and your compassion is going to go up and I see where you say, where you're talking about, that the humility allows you to then let go of thinking you know about that person and that you know about what needs to be done to help them. Presumably Then you can be open and then you can discover who they are. You can actually meet that person.

Speaker 2: 32:50

Where they are.

Speaker 1: 32:50

So they actually get more information coming in. You're then in a much stronger position to be helpful and relevant.

Speaker 2: 32:58

You could do you, and then you can do your assessment based on the truth then not your fantasy backstory, you know and you can do your assessment on what's real and what's been described to you and you can decide which interventions you want to pursue and what outcome you hope for. Right, you're in a much more skillful place as a result of that, and so it's just again. It's about that self-emptying and witnessing. Self-emptying and witnessing that is so important for contemplative practice. So, yeah, I think those are important things to ponder.

Speaker 2: 33:49

When it comes to that Humility is. It's not false humility, it's not performative, it's a sense of this person in front of me is an expression of God, is made in the image of God. Is all of these things right and I'm encountering the Holy One right when I encounter that other person? I'm encountering the great mystery when I'm encountering that person. So you know Emmanuel Levinas, the philosopher whose family was killed in the Holocaust and he became a great teacher and a great philosopher out of the Jewish tradition. He says that when we confront the face of the other, that we are seeing the face of God and there's an angel that comes and says behold the face of God and if you can enter into your encounters with others in that way. How could you be anything other than humility, how could you be anything other than humble, curious, because this great mystery is in front of you that is holy in the face of God.

Speaker 1: 35:27

Amazing. Well, I feel like, even with what we've talked about so far, there's enough there to meditate on for quite some time. For many of us, it's very beautiful, very, very beautiful, and, of course, you've been practicing this in a committed way for quite some time, haven't you?

Speaker 2: 35:47

Yeah, I mean as a minister. And so when COVID hit I had these ideas in my head about the face of the other and self-awareness and humility, and I had these stories that pointed these things out and I decided when COVID hit to just put them into a book. You know, I think one of the opening essays in the book is about a Friday night that I had at the hospital and in that Friday night it was late seven o'clock at night and a nurse called me and said there's a patient on the fourth floor and she's elderly and she's old and she is going to go to hospice in a couple of days. Her family isn't here, they've gone home to rest. But she could use a little attention.

Speaker 2: 36:49

And I went up and as I was entering into the room, the nurse said to me and Roger, she's in there, she's confused and she's just muttering the our father over and over the Lord's prayer, over and over again. And I sat with her and I held her hand and sure enough she was. She was just saying that prayer which she had probably said her whole life, and I joined in. I joined in with her, you know, I just whispered alongside of her and somehow, even though she was confused and very weak and close to death. She noticed me and she noticed that I was there and she looked at me and she got this kind of smile on her face and we were coming to the end of the prayer and she said, oh goodness, I seem to have forgotten the end, but thank you God for everything. That's how she ended the prayer.

Speaker 2: 37:58

But, thank you for everything and I thought how perfect, when I think about the mystery and the beauty of the person that I'm with, I think about that old, that old woman who, in the last moments of her life, the last days of her life, finished that prayer with thank you God for everything, and a great privilege to be with people at such times.

Speaker 1: 38:26

Very touching. I find myself very moved by that Beautiful and I love that you held her hand and you just joined in. You didn't try and persuade her she shouldn't be doing it. You didn't try and get her to talk to you about what you thought she should be talking about. You just joined in.

Speaker 2: 38:43

I just joined in. It was very sweet and I remember her a lot. I'll never forget her, because that's what I think about when I think about the other, when I think about who I'm meeting on a particular day, whether it's activism or chaplaincy or whatever it is, yeah. So thank you for inviting me to spend some time with you this morning.

Speaker 1: 39:13

It's my pleasure.

Speaker 1: 39:14

I mean, you know one thing I really wanted to ask you and I don't know what you want to say in response to this. You know, if we think about the different, all these people in the world who are in leadership positions of different sorts, you know and I'm including people who are just seeking to be good leaders in their own lives you know what I mean. You know you're doing what you're doing in your particular way and in many ways, you are a leader, aren't you? In your particular context, although humility might sound like another leader, but you are, in a way, you are a leader, yeah.

Speaker 2: 39:50

I've led congregations and so on.

Speaker 1: 39:52

Yeah, and also you're embodying something in your going practice, which to me, is another form of leadership. You know that's embodiment of something and you know if I just wonder if you could actually say something to people who are wanting to be good leaders today, I'd like to say to those people, perhaps in relation to our theme of humility and self awareness yeah, become.

Speaker 2: 40:22

I mean, the one thing that I think is crucial to all of it is, especially if you're in leadership around social justice activism, to keep the big picture in mind, to keep your eye and your heart trained on your vision. This is an important thing for us on Martin Luther King Day here in the United States, right is that? What he provided us was an example of a person who found the vision that animated his life and found the purpose and the meaning behind his life and never deviated from that and built a network and built a community. I see it and I see it in my wife's ministry all the time. She never does anything alone. She always brings in people, invites people into the process and while never wavering from the vision that animates her. So keep your eye on the prize. That's number one. Know that it's a long game, that change comes about incrementally and slowly and that there are going to be lots of other things, and invite as many people in and listen as deeply as you can along the way.

Speaker 1: 42:02

Beautiful, great advice. Well, I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with you, roger.

Speaker 2: 42:10

I thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 42:12

Has there been? I always ask people this question towards the end, which is we've talked about quite a lot in this conversation. Has there been for you a favorite part of this conversation today?

Speaker 2: 42:24

Well, listen, I wanted to tell you that it's early in Colorado, we're in, you know, negative numbers in terms of our temperature, the snow is coming down and I was the first one to wake up because it was a holiday and I had two sort of hungry dogs, two dogs that were bored, one that a puppy who wanted to go out and play in the snow, and as our conversation went along, my wife came down and helped out with the dogs. My daughter came down, helped out with the dogs. So even in something as simple as this conversation which is not so simple, but even in this conversation with somebody on the other side of the pond with me here in Colorado, in the midst of a snowstorm, it took a village even to make this happen, and so we never do any of this alone.

Speaker 1: 43:29

Well, my thanks, my thanks to your family for supporting our group.

Speaker 2: 43:33

Right now. I'll tell them.

Speaker 1: 43:35

I've had cats at this end keeping me company moving. Thankfully not fighting with each other, and, you know, breaking things, which in what can occur when they get enthusiastic. So that's a very, very beautiful point, roger. If people would like to find you or connect with you or whatever, where would you like them to go to do that?

Speaker 2: 43:57

Well, I have a LinkedIn. I have a LinkedIn page and I have a Facebook page and if you, if you enter my name, you'll find me there and my book is Seeds of Devotion. It's available wherever books are sold. You know Amazon and all of those places and I'm all of the stories that animate my life are not all of them, but many of the stories that animate my life are in there, so I would encourage folks to reach out.

Speaker 1: 44:34

I will put the link for your book in the show notes and also I'll mention LinkedIn and Facebook. So before we complete today, is there anything else you would really like to say which, if you don't say it in about an hour's time you'll kick yourself because you'll think I wish I'd just included that?

Speaker 2: 44:59

I'll just end with a blessing for your folks, and it's from my book and I'll just I'll just share it with you all. It's going to take me a minute to get there, but I've so enjoyed this time and let me find this piece. Ah, here it is. May life surprise you today. May a sense of grace come out of nowhere in the middle of your daily tasks. May a sense of peace find you in the unlikeliest of places. May a sense of courage and renewal find you, and may God's love surround you. May a gentleness, a returning quietness and a restoring stillness be with you now and always. A restorative wholeness is yours to claim and embrace, and may faith, hope and love be your constant companions. God bless your day, amen.

Speaker 1: 46:03

Amen, thank you, that is so beautiful. Thank you so much, roger. I feel blessed.

Speaker 2: 46:10

That was a very beautiful conversation.

Speaker 1: 46:12

Thank you, a beautiful day.

Speaker 2: 46:15

You too, bye, bye.

Speaker 1: 46:22

Thank you.