Ep 126: Vanessa Broers ~ High Performance Traps, Shamanic Awakening & Workplace Transformation

Join me as we embark on a transformative journey with Vanessa Broers, an accomplished Culture Shaman who gracefully transitioned from the corporate world to reshaping organisational landscapes. Vanessa illuminates the intriguing interplay between the human experience, organisational culture, and individual and team performance. She offers an insightful look at power dynamics and influence, and their potential to either enrich or ravage workplace cultures.

Dive into a candid discussion about the trap of high performance and overcompensation, a topic often swept under the carpet. We explore the dangers of an obsessive performance culture that leads to burnout and introduce the metaphor of the “hungry ghost”. This episode serves as a gentle reminder to prioritise self-care and avoid the perilous path of constant goal-chasing without rest. 

We also navigate personal narratives of authenticity and transformation, leadership challenges, and the enlightening concept of culture shamanism. Discover the fascinating intersection of inner complexity and organisational culture and gain valuable insights on fostering a thriving work environment. As we wrap up this enlightening conversation, we reflect on maintaining a positive culture amidst change, and the instrumental role our inner selves play in our interactions with others. Listen in and awaken your "Inner Shaman"!

Where to find Vanessa:

https://thepowergift.com

instagram @thehighperformancehealer

https://vanessabroerscoaching.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Truth and Transcendence brought to you by being Space with Katherine Llewellyn. Truth and Transcendence, episode 126. With special guest Vanessa Broads. I hope I pronounced that right Vanessa, great, fantastic.

Speaker 1: 0:29

So if you don't know Vanessa which is very interesting maybe her early career was in the C suite of a major corporation, leading the internal department of process improvement. She loved the work but despite that she was actually called into deeper modes of healing as a coach and healer and onto the shamanic path. So that's quite a switch. And then Vanessa spent more than a decade coaching top performing entrepreneurs, organizational leaders and professionals to tear down decades of inner blocks to performance, eliminate stress and overwhelm and radically shift the way they lead their teams and businesses to create more impact and results. Vanessa's results prove that the more you focus on the human experience, the better performance. She works as a culture shaman which is such a great term to put the human back into human performance, and works with top organizations like Reddit, linkedin, university of Pittsburgh, duquesne University and her own top performing fitness studio to create cultures that truly thrive at the human level to support higher performance within the organization. So that's very, very interesting combination.

Speaker 1: 1:53

So why do I invite Vanessa onto the podcast? Well, vanessa is quite simply a charming individual generous, spirited, warm, lighthearted and engaging. I couldn't say no. Add to that her utterly grounded understanding of organizational dynamics and she's an asset for any leader wishing to generate a flourishing culture and kind of. Secondly to that, I used to do a lot of organizational culture work back in the day and I used to love it. Found it incredibly fulfilling, quite challenging, so I feel like having a conversation with Vanessa is going to be like a chat amongst friends over here. So, vanessa, thank you so much for coming onto Truth and Transcendence.

Speaker 2: 2:35

Thank you. Yeah, a chat amongst friends is really how it's felt really since minute one, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 2:41

So settle in everybody. If you're driving, maybe not having a cup of coffee at the same time, well, maybe you are. So our theme today is about creating an intentional culture, and I know Vanessa is going to tell us what she means by that. That's the sort of phrase that different people might mean different things, and I think, from my point of view, that subject is really relevant.

Speaker 1: 3:07

At the moment in the world, we're in a situation where a lot of us feel like we are in a culture that we just landed in by mistake, whether that's at work, whether it's at home in the family, whether it's in the community. After the last few years of what we've all been through, a lot of cultures have taken a bit of hammering. Equally, there are cultures that have evolved and flourished, which are new and fresh and terribly exciting, and there are people pivoting and zigging and zagging and all kinds of things going on. So I think creating an intentional culture is a really interesting topic. So, really, you know, stay tuned in everybody. I think this is going to be really interesting. So, vanessa, if I ask you, can you remember when you first realized that culture was something that was important to you?

Speaker 2: 3:58

At first I was going to say no, but that's actually not true. When I sat with it longer, I've never been asked this question and it's so fun to remember. I actually think that it was in grad school. So I have my master's in health policy and management, which is essentially like an MBA for healthcare organizations Nothing too sexy or exciting.

Speaker 2: 4:21

But the class that I loved so much was organizational development, and I can't remember the book. It was a really cool book that we had to read, but it was all about actual power, where the actual power of an organization came from, and it wasn't in this hierarchical structures and roles and authority labels that were defined. But even more than the book, in the class I had a I think he was the teacher's, like the I don't want to say teacher's assistant, and diminished the role he was. I don't know what the actual title of the role was. His name was Keith and he was just. I was fascinated by his fascination and it was kind of one of those like intoxication by proximity type of things, and he was just.

Speaker 2: 5:07

That was that's what he did was the informal dynamics that actually led to the real creation of the culture, the flow of information and kind of the real glue that held organizations together and, conversely, what people think is what is required, what people think makes it work, and how opposed those often were. I found it fascinating and then I didn't do anything with it. I went off and had this whole other career but it really never left me. And then when I started doing the real deep work with the leaders and entrepreneurs and you know professionals that I worked with, it's like I went back in and we were looking at the culture within the individual.

Speaker 2: 5:57

So it was a lot of the coaching was how is the culture of the organization shaping how you experience yourself? How is that in most cases negative experience getting in the way of you being able to perform the way you want to at work? As I worked with people through that more and more and more, of course, because they were leaders, it had to flow outward. The challenges demanded it and also the desire to share it happened simultaneously, and so then the work really started to evolve into working with their teams and showing up and then kind of kind of reigniting that passion of oh yeah. Of course, the inner complexity is the same thing that's driving what's happening in the culture, either positively or negatively.

Speaker 1: 6:39

Yeah, beautiful that book, was it? Images of organization by Richard.

Speaker 2: 6:43

Morgan, no, I think it was called power and influence and it's such a. It's actually kind of a it can be. I can think of that name as kind of like oh, like how to win friends and influence people, kind of energetic, but actually it's really about like real pure essence of power, true power, not being powerful. I don't know if that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 7:07

Power with, as opposed to power over, is how some people yes, yes, yeah, beautiful, it's fantastic. So it sounds like it's sort of incubated within you. So, over over what sort of time period was it from when you first were inspired by Keith? Thank you, keith. So obviously he's a contributor in the story.

Speaker 2: 7:29

So, keith, if you're listening randomly, Maybe I'll send it to him, let him know.

Speaker 1: 7:37

How long was it from that moment, do you think, to the moment when you realized there was a connection with what you were now doing?

Speaker 2: 7:46

later on, with seven years, a long time, many years.

Speaker 1: 7:52

Well, seven years interesting, you know. They say that in seven years, every seven, our body is replaced. But people say it's a spiritual cycle every seven years, don't they? So maybe that cycle was the length of cycle that you needed for it to sort of come through, because I don't know if you agree with this, but I think you talk. You spoke about the complexity within somebody and the complexity in a culture. I think that happens on so many levels that it can take a long time to integrate and metabolize and consider.

Speaker 2: 8:30

Yeah, I think if I had tried to go into culture work when I was inspired, I didn't know enough about the individual and I would imagine, actually, that this is why culture feels so overwhelming to some people, to leaders, because intentional culture to me, is a combination of the vision of what you want the unit like, the cultural unit, to feel, express and be, and it's also the deep knowing and understanding of how individuals operate, and it's complex. And so then, an intentional culture is you can want it to be this, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can force it into being. It's more of this organism like, it's more of like an organic unfolding. It's like an organism lives in and of itself and it's a balance between holding the vision of intention and meeting the complexity of the individual and in flowing and dancing with it. You can't force and shove people into culture, however desperately we may try.

Speaker 1: 9:37

Yes, yes, I remember once, with a group I was a group of execs I was working with we spent literally three hours arguing about whether or not an organization is like an organism or a machine. And it's fascinating because, as you say, obviously it is an organism and yet it does have structures within it that are real and tangible. So you've got both, haven't you? But you can't ignore the organic side of it. By the way, I'm just going to let listeners know that you have very kindly come on today, despite the fact that you're just finishing off the last stages of a bit of a cough. So I just want to give you permission right now to cough as much as you need to and stop and drink water as much as you need to. The erection is so kind, Thank you. Not at all. We're human right. Interesting even what we're talking about In the culture of this conversation we're having, because it could have been the other way around.

Speaker 1: 10:37

It could have been me exhausted because I could have overdone it earlier in the day or earlier in the week. And I could have said to you before we started I'm exhausted, can you carry the energy for me, which sometimes has to happen? So I just thought if that doesn't happen in organizational cultures as well we can't carry all the energy all the time, can we?

Speaker 2: 11:03

And leaders try and individuals try. That's the thing that I'm seeing in my, in our gym. I see our. You know, you kind of fight so hard and work so hard to get your team to really care and then you're like, whoa, don't care that much, hold on, put that down, you don't need to hold that. And we do that. You know, we do that from a place of really genuine caring and I think we do it from a place of overcompensating and proving.

Speaker 1: 11:32

Yeah, and of course, when one is in a gym, there's an awful lot of performance pressure, isn't there that we put on ourselves? You know, got to lift that extra weight, an extra 5, 10 reps or whatever, otherwise I'm not doing what I need to do. And then the next day, why is it I can't walk today? And have I actually put myself back, yes, and then forward by overdoing it in that way?

Speaker 2: 12:01

Yeah, it's such a great I mean, the gym is just such an awesome metaphor. No-transcript. So many organizations that I've worked with. They can be quite obsessive about performance, high performance. I imagine that is probably true for you as well. One of the things that I think as to have this intentional culture of high performance. High performance is not constant performance. It's not performance at the expense of everything else. I noticed I'm curious if you've seen this as well part of what is required to create a culture of high performance is to mitigate overperformance. That's sort of like you don't need to lift that heavy, you don't need to carry that. If you do, you're not going to be able to walk tomorrow. It's actually. I think we can over cultivate high performance and miss those opportunities of actually kind of slowing people down a little bit. Calm down, yeah, we don't need to crush this all out in the next three minutes.

Speaker 1: 13:06

Yeah, I completely agree with you. I've seen so many people come into the room and, before even started to work together, they're already exhausted and I know for sure they've got many emails and texts waiting to be dealt with that they're going to run and deal with in the lunch break and they're supposed to be resting. I did a thing once with it with a group, where I noticed that every time we had a break, they just went and they worked through the break. And I said to them look, the purpose of the break is to have a break, so how much time do you need to work in the break? And they said well, 20 minutes should be enough. I mean, then we're running a massive organization responsible for a lot of money in the bank. I said okay, see, if you've said 20 minutes, fine, so from now on the breaks are going to be 40 minutes long and I want you to agree that you will only work for 20 minutes of that and have a break for the other 20 minutes.

Speaker 1: 14:10

And I'm going to go and see what's taking place.

Speaker 1: 14:16

And they said no problem, no problem. Anyway, they came back in after the break. They said that nearly killed us. We are shocked at how addictive we are. We're shocked about it. Yeah, and of course, annoyingly, they remembered that more than they remembered all the wonderful stuff. Remember that little tiny. But you're absolutely right, it's that sort of we've got to keep going at all costs. Yeah, and of course there's over-promising, isn't there? We've seen this in some tech companies. I remember there was a what do you call a company that provides email support?

Speaker 2: 15:06

like a domain provider. Oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:09

You could get your email and your website domain or whatever. They were clearly successful. They oversubscribed. They had loads and loads and loads of customers and I remember looking at it and thinking they will be out of business by the end of the year. And they were because they couldn't deliver. Yes, they got fed up and they remember no one. I can't even remember what they've called now.

Speaker 2: 15:36

Yeah, yes, this is so. It's so key and it's so important. You know, I actually have a bracelet. I usually actually wear it during podcasts. It's just this little gold bracelet and on the inside I have inscribed at all costs.

Speaker 2: 15:52

And it's a reminder to me that I will rest at all costs, I will slow down at all costs, and it's the opposite, but in our culture. So we're talking macro culture, not even necessarily cultures of organizations, but this shows up in cultures of organizations because it also exists in the culture of individuals, this addiction to performance and almost like to what end and for what purpose. And you know, we have this sort of have this like inner lie, that we keep telling ourselves that like we just have to reach the school and then we can pause, and then we can stop and we can slow down. And it doesn't. It never arrives, of course, because that's not how it works, but it's a. In Zen teaching they call it the hungry ghost. You're feeding the hungry ghost.

Speaker 1: 16:47

Oh, I haven't heard that. Tell me what that means.

Speaker 2: 16:51

So the hungry ghost, and you can imagine you could feed a ghost endlessly and it would never. It can't be nourished, it can't be satiated. And so you really aware, like, are you feeding the hungry ghost or are you actually kind of there's a like the other image that comes up is sinking your feet into the soil Like there's a different kind of pacing that happens when you're just creating, for creation, and it can be fast and it can be intense and it can be, you know, exponential, but it's not detrimental.

Speaker 1: 17:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes perfect sense and I'm fascinated, vanessa, by this whole kind of journey you went on, where you decided to let go of what you were doing and then go and study the shamanic path and all these other other things. Could you tell a bit more of a story about that, because I'm sure people are going to be fascinated to hear this?

Speaker 2: 17:52

It was less. It was, I would say, at the beginning of the journey. It was more. I don't want to diminish it it was more impulsive than intuitive, but those are a fine line for me. In my younger years I'm learning to trust both more and discern them also.

Speaker 2: 18:10

But I was working for an organization. I was 25 years old, I was in the C-suite, I mean, I was reporting to the. You know, I was in the meetings with the CEO and the COO and the CFO and they were like who I was in the office with? And it was I was a backpacker in Australia and they were like what is happening? The contrast was so wild. And, you know, I really have a brilliant mind, like I'm really smart and I can see patterns, and so I. The role itself was really cool and it was really challenging mentally.

Speaker 2: 18:43

But I was 25 and I wasn't ready for that level of responsibility. I, you know, I wanted to play and travel and explore, and I have the maturity at the time to actually lead people. Yeah, look back, I can see moments. I had a team and I can. I can even remember, you know, and they were great friends and we had a. We had a ton of fun too, but I can remember the looks they would give me, sometimes just like eye rolling.

Speaker 2: 19:08

You know it was micromanaging, it wasn't leading, and I didn't know what I was doing which do any of us really and so I had the wisdom to understand that, although I loved the work, it was short. It was short lived it. Even if I, like I sort of joke sometimes that if I hadn't quit I would have been fired, and I don't know, I don't know how much of a joke that was, I think I would have probably allowed it to unravel a little bit. So I left and I traveled for a while and I was restless. I was deeply restless.

Speaker 2: 19:44

I would go to, you know, south America for four months and I go home for a minute, and then I would go to New Zealand for 14 months, and I was in this search, and all the while, though, I was studying health coaching, and so at some point, I came back and I felt, okay, no, I need it's time, I need to put my feet in the ground, I need to devote to this, I need to create this thing, and so, over years, I was a health coach, but I never was focused on nutrition or eating plans or exercise. I was always more tuned into what was going on with my clients at a deeper level that had them perform and get results or not. I was also really.

Speaker 1: 20:22

I just I did more like a sort of essential wellness.

Speaker 2: 20:27

Yeah, yeah. But even then I remember being really perplexed why are we talking about your relationship to your husband? We're supposed to be talking about leafy greens this week, you know. But also really trusted it and so, as I just, I got more curious about that and also, why did some of my clients do really well and why did some of them seem to stall out and stay stuck forever? I got really curious about also the relationship between physical weight on the body and those same patterns. And also that was one end of the spectrum. The other end were these like super athletes that were really obsessive and just kind of observing that there was dysfunction in both, but not really understanding either.

Speaker 2: 21:12

And so I then found my way into belief, work and neurolinguistic programming and so sort of what we would call in the personal development world rewiring the brain, very useful, mind blowing. It was a whole discovery that, oh my gosh, there's a world in there and you have some agency over it. Wow, if you just put the red wire with the blue wire, the bomb doesn't go off, kind of like looking at it from a more mechanical and strategic perspective and so. But I was always being, I was it's like I was always being beck and forth. I was always being called deeper. I could tell that what I was learning was correct, but it wasn't it. You know, there was just this yeah, but this is close, but it's not quite it.

Speaker 2: 21:58

And then my personal journey with that was I kept using it. Then it's a. There's the metaphor that I'm. It's like I poisoned the water, the knowing of this power that you had over your mind. Even notice how I said that, the power you have over your mind.

Speaker 2: 22:20

Yes, it kind of poisoned the water of the innocent possibility that I started as a coach, which was just so childlike. It was like Alice in Wonderland Whoa, where did this come from? And this is so cool, it can help people. And I got a little drunk with my own power and I became obsessed with making money and the high performance, personal development, entrepreneurial world and I got lost, lost. Lost. And I was good at it. That was the problem. Even though I had deep dissatisfaction I mean, that was growing more profound by the day I just kept good at getting better at making money and my brilliant mind started kind of working against me and writing copy and coaching entrepreneurs. And you know, like I just kept, it was like the hungry ghost. The hungry ghost got a hold of the deep power and skill set.

Speaker 2: 23:17

And what happened for me was that, despite growing my income year after year, reducing the hours I work year after year and actually getting really, really good at what I did, wasn't? I was so, so bored and so dissatisfied that I couldn't force it to work. If I had tried and I tried, because I had always been able to force everything to work and I met my teacher at the time, who just find yourself a teacher and who just doesn't believe a word you say and can see right through it. And she did. And so, despite my best efforts to keep propping up this machine I had built, I really I started to go deeper than I ever had before and you know she does a lot with inner child work and I rolled my eyes at it. I'm like I've done that before, you know, and it was just what I call it went.

Speaker 2: 24:23

It went from like the mindset strategy to deep, deep soul orientation. Yeah, and that, if you know I'm, I know you've been on that journey. It's a, it's a treacherous one, and that isn't soul survives. And so it was this reunion with understanding that there is something much deeper in us that's driving it and it can be so muddied by all of these other things and then, simultaneously, probably the biggest, the biggest growth it seems like a weird word to call it is the recognition that I am Not the one in power. Yeah, it's not me. Yeah, I can use these mind tools and I can align myself with higher purpose and higher power. But it's called higher purpose and higher power for a reason. Yes, yes.

Speaker 2: 25:13

And so for me, I'm taking micro baby steps on the shamanic path, because it feels like every time I put a toe down, I get obliterated or annihilated on some level. So I've become quite timid. I don't run on the path anymore.

Speaker 1: 25:27

That shows you're actually on the path, I think.

Speaker 2: 25:29

Yeah, exactly Exactly. You're, like you know, cautiously crawling and inchworming, instead of trying to try this. I don't want to sprint dead. I know what's up there.

Speaker 1: 25:40

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:42

But when it sounds like you had some, it sounds like you, had some quite important ego breakthrough experiences.

Speaker 2: 25:48

I mean ego breakthroughs would be a kind way to call what I would say utter annihilation. And what that looked like really practical for me was thinking about it this morning. It was last spring and I did this virtual live event and it was after I had done a lot of this really, really deep work. So I felt like, okay, I'm finally doing the truth of what I'm here for and I'm being myself. And it was flowing with ease. I had tons of people signing up and to this day, I cannot explain why.

Speaker 2: 26:24

It was an absolutely devastating disaster, the event. Nobody who was there can put their finger on it and yet we all agree it was painful. It was painful to be there, it was painful to watch. I didn't get out of bed for a week and nothing in my life has kept me down. It was humiliation, annihilation, devastation at the deepest level. And when I finally did get out of bed, I knew there was no going back to the business that I had created. I just stopped. I stopped working, I stopped creating, I stopped sharing, I stopped posting. I just laid on my paddleboard for six weeks and I let. My credit came crashing down, my income came crashing down, I couldn't pay rent. I mean, it wasn't like I let it fall down and I had to, because then, when the rubble finally settled, the only thing that could get back up was me, the true me, and it was so humbling. I mean, it was so humbling and yeah, and coming back out.

Speaker 1: 27:39

Well done for doing that, that's bold, you know, because I think oftentimes we will do anything but allow ourselves to get to that place where what's not real gets stripped away.

Speaker 2: 27:56

Yes, absolutely. And it's you know, coming back to work on the other side of that and working with culture and people. Now, of course, now I would have done it 10 times over, 10 times more intensely, because I see, on the other side, the lead from that place of humility is completely different.

Speaker 1: 28:24

So how did you come back? How did you climb back out and come back?

Speaker 2: 28:30

I love that you asked that question, because we tend to tell the stories like and then it was different.

Speaker 1: 28:35

And then Morgan Frederick did, and the world was safe.

Speaker 2: 28:39

Yeah, the.

Speaker 2: 28:39

A's flew away. Yeah, I love you for asking that question. So in that period where stopping was the only option, I really it was. It was total torture. But it was also that I it was that the only time I feel like I'm moving in the right direction is when I'm completely stopped. That's just how it felt, and it was an extreme amount of fatigue as well, like I, actually my body was really tired and my mind only wanted silence. It was the only thing that felt satisfying. Just all those other things, the patterns that I used to be in, they just didn't work. And so for weeks and weeks it was like that, and then something shifted and it was that that was no longer satisfying. Like, just stopping was no longer satisfying, but there was absolutely in my mind. There was no clear step to take, no direction, to take no work. That seemed right.

Speaker 2: 29:39

And so it was this really frustrating couple of weeks where it was well, okay, if I'm not supposed to be doing nothing, what am I supposed to be doing? So I started walking. Okay, my body wants to move. I don't know where, where I'm going, but at least it was. It was just movement. It's almost literally like the power source was coming back on physically, and at this point I was only sort of involved in the gym that I co-owned. I was more like a occasional support system, but, quite honestly, I had nothing better to do. So and I and then I've really started to feel like, okay, now I need to move my body and it's a high intensity interval training workout. So I just started going to the gym to work out and that was also and you see, these micro steps, you know your mind will fight this the whole time. This is pointless. You've got to get things going, you've got to pay your bills, you've got to pick up the pieces. But really at that time I just started to feel how good it felt to be in my body and to feel the power of my body again, which I hadn't for a long time because I was so drained. Yeah, and I felt so strong and I, because I am really strong, I was always the one kind of taking the workout to the next level, which was catching the attention of the people in the gym, and I started to talk to them again and it felt so good.

Speaker 2: 31:05

After eight years of being a solo at home virtual entrepreneur and even though I did deep and meaningful work. I was really isolated and it just felt so good and so nourishing to be around people again and I just loved I was drinking it in and it just it just felt so good that I found myself there more and more. Because I was there more and more, I started to see, oh man, people are suffering, they are treating themselves terribly and they are completely off course with if they think that what they're doing is going to get them anywhere. But taking them around in circles, it was like all I could see was hungry ghosts everywhere.

Speaker 2: 31:49

Yeah, because I had spent almost well a decade just completely immersed in the world of personal development and the only other people that I talked to and interacted with were other people immersed in personal development, I had completely lost perspective of A how far I had come on the journey and, b the reality of what most people are actually living in day to day. And so, as I just and my team as well and I noticed that my team was so uplifted and nourished and excited and inspired just by me being there that I started to really get my hands in and start to bring more attention to the workplace as well, and so that's sort of like. You can see how it, just little by little, it had to be. It had to be micro piece by micro, piece by micro piece, so that I could see the nuance of what was important at every level.

Speaker 1: 32:46

Yeah, it sounds like you're a massive kind of cleansing and that you then arrived in a place where you could not but be truthful with yourself. That's what it sounds like, 100%, because I think a lot of us in life are not being truthful with ourselves by a lot of the time but it sounds like you reached a point where that was no longer tolerable for you. You wouldn't tolerate it any longer. Well, the universe wouldn't tolerate you doing it, or something.

Speaker 2: 33:18

But we can't relate to the both.

Speaker 1: 33:20

It was kind of like you needed any longer yeah it was you know your presence was really inspiring when you came back.

Speaker 1: 33:30

And that thing of finding one's way back in through movement and through connection with the body, I think is incredibly powerful, because we forget that our brain is actually physically part of our body and is therefore nourished by the body, is nourished by the blood and everything else the sugar or the proteins, everything else nourishes the brain. So if the body is not moving and is not healthy, no wonder the brain can get a bit stagnant and we can feel a bit proud. Frankly, yes, even if it's only boredom this is that term, isn't there living a life of quiet desperation? Do you know that?

Speaker 2: 34:12

term, Quiet, desperation. I think that so many people live that, and when I think about this was sort of like a really roundabout way to finally answer the question of how did I come to culture Shaman? For me, I'm a deeply spiritual person, so I don't it's like I don't experience anything in the world as not deeply spiritual. Everything is that, and so when I especially came back into my organization and I saw the quiet desperation that everybody was living in clients, employees, the whole thing, the secret truth about the work I do has nothing to do with the performance of the organization. That's just the way it is. It's actually.

Speaker 2: 35:03

For me, it's about looking at the way that the culture of the organization is either feeding the quiet desperation of their team or liberating them from it. So for me, an intentional culture is one that prioritizes, as I would say and not everybody would say it this way but the liberation of its people. And if what you're doing to fuel the performance of the organization has to I'll use the word abandon your people. Even if you succeed, you fail. Yeah, it's a big ask.

Speaker 1: 35:48

Yes, and you get to the point where you achieve the goal, but then you always have another goal, always Look around at your resources and suddenly some of them are no longer there. I remember once I was called in to work with some people who were making a significant change in their organization and they said, catherine, we want you to come in because we've got all the tangible stuff sorted you know process, it, sites, hr, everything. But we know that if we do it the way we are going to do it now, we're going to lose some of our best people and the people who remain. We can lose the best of those people. They'll still be here, but the good will be damaged. Those people will be drained and exhausted. We want to get to the end of it and keep our good people and I've. All our people come out of it in a good state at the end and we have no idea how to do that.

Speaker 2: 36:51

That's why we want you to come in.

Speaker 1: 36:53

Cool, no problem. Exactly what you're saying. The complexity of the within a person then gives rise to the culture, but the culture also gives rise to how that person feels when they're within it, and it's in a programic and mutually supportive and mutually feeding.

Speaker 2: 37:15

And deeply inconvenient, by the way, to the organization. You can't just keep grinding. That's the part where it can't be a machine if it's fueled by people, because people aren't machines. There can be mechanisms and structures and processes, but it quite often is. You said this right at the very beginning. It's a much bigger challenge, I think, than most people anticipate when they embark on the creation of culture.

Speaker 1: 37:49

So I imagine some of the listeners might be curious about what? Does shamanic work have to do with working with clients in large corporates, so is it possible to give an example of an aspect of the shamanic approach and how that show up in the work that you're doing?

Speaker 2: 38:13

Yeah, yes, yes, yes. So what I usually share, at least this is the way that I define shamanic work, so that it feels easy. Shaman work with basically what's beyond the physical. That's what they work with, they trust in it, they know it to be as real and true as everything else that we see and touch. And so I say that shamanic work with the most fundamental energies that are at play at any given time and there are people who even that feels strange to.

Speaker 2: 38:45

I always give the example of when you walk into a room and you see someone you know and before you even look at them, you can feel how they feel. And that energy is always at play, always Shaman just tend to be, it's like, almost to an antagonizing level, aware of those energies at play. I can't not see them when I walk into a room, I can't not feel them when I walk into a room. And so inside of a culture, the role of the culture shaman is. Everybody is looking at other people. Leaders are looking at the situation, others are looking at the process. Others still might be even tuned into the emotional experiences that they're having. Some people might be paying attention to the relationships. I'm paying attention to the interplay of all, of how all of those energies are affecting both the people and the direction.

Speaker 2: 39:45

So, when a girl is, I'm working with a friend in her organization and we are I'm supporting her to create this really big event that hasn't been done before and through a series of really I mean brief interactions with everyone on her team, I mean a five minute call here, an email exchange there, a longer conversation with the woman who runs the organization and myself. I sent her a message and I said can you feel the subtle energetic of everyone taking on the responsibility of success themselves and therefore everybody fearing that if it doesn't succeed, it's on them? And she was like I said it's almost imperceptible, you almost can't see it. And she said, oh my gosh, I knew there was something going on with the team, but I couldn't figure out what it was. And so I said to her the team is asking without words. The energy of the team is asking for us to shift from getting it right to going all in. And so then it was.

Speaker 2: 40:50

So then I was working with her to shift. What does that mean? Getting it right to going all in, and it's, you know, it's again these like really kind of esoteric themes that don't fit the practical world. So seven steps to shift from getting it right to going all in to then help everyone on the team. What does that look like for this person? What does that look like for this person? What does that look like for us as the leaders?

Speaker 1: 41:12

So that one beautiful, practical, beautiful example and I think you know anyone listening to that has had experiences of noticing subtle shifts occurring, maybe not being able to name them, maybe not understanding how they happened, even, and I think we've all had experiences of wishing a certain shift might occur and and maybe not knowing what to do about it. And I think we've also had experiences of feeling called to something by somebody or some people or by the situation. Whether we've actually noticed it or responded to it is another matter and, of course, we've all had many times when we've not noticed any of it because we've been oblivious and self-interested. Whatever it is.

Speaker 2: 42:12

I love that you shared that, because then the second kind of layer to that you know, the true, you know the most sort of literal expression of the shaman would be that I would work with one person and we would clear all of the energetic blocks that are in the way of that person being able to show up. So the second thing that I, that I help this team, is the reason that this person, like I, can just feel and sense that, the reason that this person is taking it on for herself and fearing the failure, is because of this, this dynamic that she has with proving herself, and the reason that she's doing it is because of this. And the reason that you're doing it is the leader is because of this. And then that's where we get into that complexity. And so what I think can often happen in an organization is first, like you said, sometimes we can sense that there's an energy, but we can't name it. So, as, as the culture shaman, let's name what's happening so that we can see what we're looking at. That nobody could. We could feel but couldn't see it. Now we can see it because we named it.

Speaker 2: 43:15

Yeah, this is the second thing, that the second thing that often happens is people either worry about it or they blame themselves for it, particularly oh, I let the team down, how did I miss this? How did we get here? And oh no, now that we're here, what are we going to do? So it's the kind of two responses, but the shaman doesn't worry about anything. Energy is energy, it is what it is. So this is what we've got.

Speaker 2: 43:38

And so then the third piece is taking that thing that we just named that we're now no longer blaming ourselves for or worrying about, and kind of turning it into an invitation. What is what's the, if this is the thing that's happening, what's the thing we're being called into? Yeah, and, and then that is sort of a process, then what will be required of this person who you know isn't doing it because of her own insecurities, in this way, and why? Why aren't you doing it as the leader? What is the edge that you're being called into as the leader? That's actually make that shift. And so we actually started kind of tease it apart piece by piece, so that this overwhelming unseeable but totally sensible, feelable, energetic becomes something you can actually work with, practically Beautiful.

Speaker 1: 44:29

So it sounds like as a result well, you were probably a bit like this beforehand, but it sounds like as a result of all the work you've done. But your perceptive capacities are greatly expanded and also it seems like that's combined with you've got a very strong energy yourself and an imagination as well, it seems. So that you're so you can use that perception that you know, you know picking up on these subtle things. You can use it in a way that's creative, yes, and help these people creatively, rather than what we used to do back in the 80s. You know we'd go in and do a diagnostic piece and then present to the board how terrible everything was, and if they wanted to improve it they had to pay us more money. But it sounds like you know brutal, really brutal thing to do and we were often kicked out and we were surprised. We didn't realize we were being very active, kind.

Speaker 2: 45:35

I just had this vision of you as the ghost of Christmas past. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 45:41

In a navy suit, you know, with a good watch and heels back in the day. So we don't do that now, but it sounds to me like you're. You're engaging, which is very shamanic. Actually, someone said to me the difference between a guru and a shaman is that the guru tells everybody you know what's true and what they should do, and the shame of actually lives this, and we said that with a beautiful way of describing that.

Speaker 2: 46:12

Can I share a little story that comes up when you? I really love that because when you first asked me that question, two really distinct stories came into my mind, and the one I was what I told, and the other one is this one because the other work of the culture, shaman, is to always be in a deeper level of work than maybe your clients will ever need to go to themselves. And so even this was yesterday I had a really big meeting with our team to talk about some enormous and radical changes are making to the business. So I was a little a little anxious about knowing how people, speaking of energetics, knowing exactly how everybody would respond ahead of time and in true shamanic fashion. I also don't pay attention to detail, so didn't know that my daughter's school was canceled that day and I had to drop her off at a friend's house and she had never been to this friend's house before though really sweet family and I was in a rush and I was caught up in the at all the bad out at all costs energy, and I went to drop her off.

Speaker 2: 47:18

She's four and she's just like a Disney princess, you know. She's just pure innocence and joy and bright light. I love her so much and she was nervous to go into this house and I was irritated. I wanted her to just go in the house and make it easy for me and she was clinging to my hand, you know, and the story is so heartbreaking for me, it's heartbreaking beyond rational. I think you'll get it. And I was like trying to, you know, at first I was trying, it's okay, you know, go on in, it's Andrew, you love Andrew. And kind of like bypassing her innate body wisdom or fear that she needed pause, I needed to go. It was so. So I, you know, I like tried for a couple of minutes and she looked at me and with her little, like you know, still sort of chubby baby hand in mine, she said mommy, can you walk me inside? And I said no and I said you're fine, go in. And I pulled her hand like I pride her hand off and I pushed her forward in the door and I and I ran off and I got in my car and I drove about three blocks and then I parked the car and I burst into tears and I sobbed and sobbed like I cried all day yesterday about this exchange no-transcript For a lot of people they would look at that and be like, yes, so what?

Speaker 2: 48:46

Like she was fine, you knew she was gonna be fine. She came home with presence. I mean, the family couldn't be more loving. It wasn't about that. It was about A bypassing her body's wisdom. Her body's wisdom said to wait. Her little girl needed space, needed ease, needed transition. And my mental pressure to not be 10 minutes late for this stupid meeting was to me like it's just the ultimate heartbreak of humanity. Is that not having space for the child in all of us?

Speaker 2: 49:27

And it was so I mean, devastatingly heartbreaking, and so the Shaman's role is to feel. The deepest truth of what that was about was not about her being safe to go into a friend's house and to let that break my heart like as much as it needed to, as deeply as it needs to, for as long as I'm meant to feel it so that when I go into organizations it's like hold on, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, no, no, no, hold on. We need to pause and like to honor the deep honoring of the most innocent, pure part of every human.

Speaker 1: 50:06

Yeah, beautiful, amazing story. Well, I mean, the thing I hear in your story as well is a reminder that we can compromise something, that we are doing and there is always a consequence. We can do that and there's always a consequence because we know and we feel it. It's like if you really knew that it was really okay just to shuffle in, like that you wouldn't have had to stop and break down and cry. So you knew that you'd actually compromised something and you felt it very fully. So you didn't ignore it, squash it down and then go and take it out on somebody else. You take it into grist for your mill, material for expansion.

Speaker 2: 50:57

And it was this moment of like what am I doing? What am I doing today? That's so important that I could not just honor that three minute transition. That's pure insanity and it's what most of us are doing and it's feeding most cultures, yeah and you're right, we do it with our own inner child. All day.

Speaker 1: 51:25

Yeah, we do, which is very, it is heartbreaking.

Speaker 2: 51:30

And ultimately, I think that was the truest essence of the grief that I was feeling yesterday was the recognition that the only way that I would ever do that to my actual child is because I will do it to my inner child.

Speaker 1: 51:43

Yes, so well said yeah very powerful. The only way I would actually do that to my own child is if I'm already doing that to my own inner child. Yeah, beautiful, and that's true as well. Isn't it In the way leaders work with culture? What they will do with their people? They will only do what they would do with themselves to themselves.

Speaker 2: 52:06

Yeah, and I see this a lot when I work with leaders around their culture. I mean, the stuff that makes culture so hard is the stuff that triggers the places in you that you can't be with. Yeah, when someone just can't figure it out and you're so frustrated with them, or when someone disrespect is a big one, feeling so disrespected is almost always a symptom of your own lack of inner authority being challenged, your own inability to be with your truth and decisions and have other people not like it.

Speaker 1: 52:43

And culture.

Speaker 2: 52:45

To me it's hard, it's really hard. And you create a great culture and things are going well and then you need to make a mess, change your organization and things fall apart. And the moments that, where your culture needs you the most, are more your most likely to abandon yourself.

Speaker 1: 53:05

Yeah absolutely, it's a mirror.

Speaker 2: 53:08

It is. It's a mirror. Amazing.

Speaker 1: 53:11

Vanessa, I could literally talk to you about this for hours and hours and hours, but we don't have time for that, yeah.

Speaker 1: 53:19

Also I don't want to give the listeners all of the goods all in one conversation.

Speaker 1: 53:24

You know they have to call you if they want to.

Speaker 1: 53:29

So if we think about leaders in the world today I know it's because of switch macro now on you a little bit If we think about what's going on in the world in interesting times, there are a lot of challenges and I believe there are a lot of people in leadership positions, and I'm including people who just want to be a better leader in their own lives and including those people. I believe a lot of those people want to be part of the solution and some of them are listening to this conversation right now and some of them will be thinking this all sounds incredible, but where do I even begin? You know, what can I even do or what can I even reflect on as a kind of a baby step to start to sort of engage with some of this, because to some people this is very foreign. To some people it's intellectually familiar, but not necessarily experientially. And there are also people out there who are feeling a lot of the stuff you've been talking about but can't make sense of it.

Speaker 1: 54:38

And of course, there are people out there who are absolutely masters in all of this and queued us. So there's everybody's out there, right? So you've got the chance here and I'm gonna invite you to just say what would you like to say to leaders today.

Speaker 2: 54:53

I would like to say that the world is calling forth a new kind of leader. It to me feels really like a calling. Sometimes I use the language call to arms. I like it. I think it's because it's not for the faint of heart and if you feel triggered, agitated, if you feel inspired and curious, if you feel a sense of duty or familiarity, that's in some way you are answering the call. That's, it's calling to you.

Speaker 2: 55:40

So that's the first thing that I would say. And it's not. I can offer some, we can drill down into some sort of practical kind of next steps. But I will also say that part of what's required in this new kind of leadership is a willingness to be in bewilderment, to be in confusion for a moment, without having to make it immediately make sense. And it's the necessity to hold that tension so that you can birth something new. And that tension might be three minutes of just sitting, and then you'll know exactly what next step to take. It could be three months where you're agonizing or I can't get that crazy woman's voice out of my head. What does she mean, you know? So let that tension, just try not to alleviate it immediately. Ooh beautiful.

Speaker 1: 56:35

Well, that sounds like an invitation to denurge a one's inner shaman.

Speaker 2: 56:41

That's what that sounds like. That's exactly what that is. That's sneaky.

Speaker 1: 56:47

Yes, that's what that is. That is so. Inner shamans are coming to life all over the planet right now.

Speaker 2: 56:53

Yes.

Speaker 1: 56:54

But yes, I love it. I love it Like in those. Did you ever watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer?

Speaker 2: 57:02

Oh, yes, yes, and anyone.

Speaker 1: 57:06

Fragging. Anyone who hasn't heard of it? Just looking up Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So you know this young girl, buffy, has all these powers. You know she can slay the vampires and she's the only one. And there's something that happens right near the end of the series where I can't remember how it happens, but suddenly there are young women all over the world who've got this power and it just expands and expands, and expands and expands as they're waking up to this power, and then we've got to learn what to do with it and use it responsibly.

Speaker 1: 57:39

And of course, it's the Joss Whedon who created the show. It's his way of saying. You know, awakening might start with one person, but then it's gonna spread and then it's gonna show up everywhere, and this is what we're trying to do. So it's a beautiful moment where suddenly all these young women all over the world suddenly have got this extra empowerment Beautiful. So you know, we're inviting us all to allow the inashamment to come through and to be as it is and not necessarily do anything with it until that comes through. It's beautiful. Well, you know that's a meditation. You know just that meditation on its own and could take somebody quite a long way.

Speaker 2: 58:31

Yes, yes, yeah. The other thing that I love about that story about Buffy is that, for most of the people who are listening, it has to be you. It has to be you because you're the one that's listening. It has to be you because you're the one that can see it. It has to be you because you're here. It has to be you and actually, in and of itself, that is that can be quite the meditation as well. So it has to be, and there are others, there are others that will be others, you will meet others, but for most people who are in the positions that you're talking about at the moment, it's them and it has to be them. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 59:11

I remember again back in the 80s. I remember people used to organizations, used to call in expensive consultants to and ask them to do the thing yes, that the leader should be doing, and they were surprised when their people was entered it. Yeah, it was just, it was just wrong. You know, it's like it'd be like a parent calling in somebody to bring up their children.

Speaker 2: 59:37

Yeah, you can't outsource leadership, it's like outsource leadership.

Speaker 1: 59:41

You know you, you can outsource some things, but not the essence of the heart of leadership, and I remember this was I think that happens a lot less now than it used to, because I think there's been a massive sort of growing up has occurred and I also there's a much, a greatly expanded connection to emotional intelligence really showing up, being vulnerable and connecting the masculine and feminine managers together, which is another thing I see you doing, by the way, you know, because you're incorporating the practical and the directional and the intentional with the receptive and the perceptive and the you know, and that's that's.

Speaker 1: 1:00:30

You can't do better than that, really.

Speaker 2: 1:00:32

And Mm. Hmm, fantastic.

Speaker 1: 1:00:35

Thank you, that's a good question. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:00:37

I love that. I love that you kind of have been bringing in like the past perspective. What I see is going to be required for organizations moving forward to really experience what they want Is that I think that's evolved. I think they I really believe at least the organizations that I've been working with they really want the real thing. You know they can feel this isn't quite working. We want something different. They can't quite put their finger on what it is and some of them are more receptive to the language you just use than, excuse me, than others. Yeah, but the growth edge that I see for organizations there has to be a little bit of a letting go of the. Ok, fine, but tell me exactly how to do it. Mm, hmm, exactly, they are more of a relaxing and you know, and it's tricky in an organization, of course, but you know there's not a seven step strategy to everything.

Speaker 1: 1:01:32

That just isn't Not the way you're doing it. Truth right there.

Speaker 2: 1:01:38

But tell me how, right now, how do I make it different? Right now?

Speaker 1: 1:01:41

you don't, but you will hold people's hand and, of course, the money system, yes yes, because there's not an exact system Doesn't mean there's no way.

Speaker 2: 1:01:52

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:01:54

Well, I'm not. You must be great fun to work with Vanessa, and they've been such fun for me talking with them Also today. If people would like to find you, where would you like them to go?

Speaker 2: 1:02:05

They can go to Vanessa Brewer's coachingcom yeah. They can find me on Instagram, the high performance healer yeah. And the email my email list is the most fun place to hang out with me aside from real life. And get on to that by going to thepowergiftcom and it says you have 52 minute free training that I've done on what I think really creates like true power in a leader. And then that puts you on my email list where I always say like the juiciest, truest, most honest work is put there.

Speaker 1: 1:02:41

Fantastic, amazing. So before we wind up the question, I always ask my guests just before we finish has there been a favorite part of our conversation for you today, vanessa?

Speaker 2: 1:02:54

That's almost an impossible question, because the whole thing was so fun.

Speaker 1: 1:03:00

Hmm.

Speaker 2: 1:03:02

Yes, I'm like there's like a moan, there's something that you said, actually, and I'm trying to put my finger on what it was. You know, I can't remember what that thing was in particular, but oh man, it's like, ok, it's not meant to be, I guess. Well, what I would say is it was really fun to tell the story. Oh, this is what it was. Here it is. It was you asking me the question of how did I really come back? That was my favorite part, because it's always bothered me when I hear other people's stories are like and then crash, crash, crash, and then what You're like oh, wait a minute, what happened? What happened there? And I love that, because I don't want to tell my story that way. So, thank you in the space to share that very slow emergence.

Speaker 1: 1:03:52

My pleasure. Well, I want to really honor it as well, because that's work, isn't it? The coming back. You know, the going down is work and the coming back is work as well, and I think we honor that in ourselves and in each other. It's very important and it takes time, it takes energy and it can be messy and, as you say, it can be in micro steps. And, as you said as well, I think while you're doing it, you can be questioning yourself and saying is this relevant? Am I just an idiot.

Speaker 1: 1:04:26

Should I just go back to whatever I was not doing, you know, but it's a very important transition and I think it links back to what you said about the shamanic way, which is that you actually experience the experience while it's happening, rather than only experiencing the experience that fits in with the experience you think you should be having. Yes, yes, very well, such a great reminder.

Speaker 2: 1:04:59

Brilliant reminder. Yes, yes, oh life, oh, right, live life. Yes, yes, yes, got it. I keep forgetting.

Speaker 1: 1:05:08

I've got a friend who I believe some people who have that can actually do this thing where she sort of travels and checks in on somebody. And one time I rang her up and said, if you do travel and just take a gun with me in the night, whatever what are you going to see when you get? There as a big under reconstruction sign, because I'm going through a really messy time. You're going to totally disagree with what I'm doing at the moment, but it is under reconstruction, don't help.

Speaker 2: 1:05:46

Amazing, just let me do it.

Speaker 1: 1:05:48

Oh no, no, Don't mess with it. It's going to be messy for a while, don't know how long for or how to come back.

Speaker 2: 1:05:56

Don't know why I'm doing it, but I know it's right Under construction. New favorite part of the conversation right here, I know that's cool.

Speaker 1: 1:06:09

Ok, well, before we go on to another whole cycle, it's been so delightful having you on, vanessa, thank you so much, and your clients are very, very lucky people, thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:06:21

Yeah, likewise, this has been just such a perfect start to my day and as delightful as I expected it to be. But thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 1:06:28

Thank you so much and have a beautiful, beautiful rest of the day. You too, Thank you for listening to Truth and Transcendence and thank you for supporting the show by rating, reviewing, subscribing, buying me a coffee and telling a friend. If you'd like to know more about my work, you can find out about mentoring, workshops and energy treatments on beingspaceworld. Have a wonderful week and I'll see you next time.